SPEAKER_00: Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to how I built this early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Here's a little tip for your growing business. Get the new VentureX business card from Capital One and start earning unlimited double miles on every purchase. That's one of the reasons Jennifer Garner has one for her business. That's right. Jennifer Garner is a business owner and the co-founder of Once Upon a Farm, providers of organic snacks and meals loved by little ones and their parents. With unlimited double miles, the more Once Upon a Farm spends, the more miles they earn. Plus, the VentureX business card has no pre-set spending limit, so their purchasing power can adapt to meet their business needs. The card also gets their team access to over 1,300 airport lounges. Just imagine where the VentureX business card from Capital One can take your business. Capital One. What's in your wallet? Terms and conditions apply. Find out more at CapitalOne.com slash VentureX Business. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. If you're a small business owner, it isn't just your business. It's your life. Whatever your business might be, you want someone who understands. And that's where State Farm's small business insurance comes in. State Farm agents are small business owners too, and know what it takes to help you personalize your policies for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor? State Farm is there. Talk to your local agent today. This episode is brought to you by Vital Farms. No matter how you like your eggs, scrambled, over-easy, or sunny-side up, the people at Vital Farms believe in one thing. Keeping it bullsh** free. That's why their pasture-raised eggs come from hens who each have over 108 square feet of space to roam and forage all year round. So you can spend less time questioning your food and more time enjoying it. I love Vital Farms eggs. I buy them every time I'm at Whole Foods or at another store. And it also gives me peace of mind knowing that the hens are treated ethically. Look for the black Vital Farms carton in your grocery store and learn more at VitalFarms.com. Vital Farms. Keeping it bullsh** free. Hey, it's Guy here, and before we start the show, I want to share something I heard recently from Stephen Colbert. It's about learning from failure. He told me an incredible story from way back when he was doing improv in Chicago and how he broke on stage one night, which he initially thought was the worst thing ever, but it actually changed his life and his approach to comedy forever. To hear my conversation with Stephen Colbert and other incredible creative people, listen to my other podcast, The Great Creators. Just search for The Great Creators with Guy Raz wherever you listen to podcasts. And now, on to today's show.
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to How I Built This, a show about innovators,
SPEAKER_00: entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements they built. I'm Guy Raz, and on the show today, how Michael Praiseman set out to start an online retail platform, fell into the apparel industry, and built the multimillion dollar brand, Everlane. In early 2023, KPMG, the global consulting firm, did some research around consumer behavior. And they found that about a third of people think about a company's social mission when they decide what to buy. So, for example, about a third of consumers might choose Ben & Jerry's over, say, the supermarket brand, because Ben & Jerry's is perceived to care about things like the environment. Over the past 20 years, this kind of research has led to an explosion of consumer-focused brands and companies that emphasize their commitment to social responsibility. There's even a name for it, social enterprise. And for the most part, that's a good thing, right? We want our companies and brands to do less harm. But the problem is that being celebrated as a so-called social enterprise can also make you vulnerable when you can't always live up to your ideals. And that is part of why Everlane hit a bumpy patch in the past few years. If you don't know the brand, they sell clothing, mainly basics like t-shirts, jeans, sweaters, sort of like the Gap from the 90s. Everlane was one of the first direct-to-consumer brands that really leaned in on the concept of radical transparency. The company laid out the actual costs of making clothing, so for example, a t-shirt can cost between $4 and $6 to make. What we're all paying for is the brand name. But you know that, and so do I. Everlane wanted to double down and not just show you the true cost of making clothing, but everything about it, the factory, the shipping process, where raw materials were sourced. And the idea was to educate consumers, to show them that they could basically buy the same product from Everlane, but for a fraction of the price. And they could do it ethically. When Michael Praiseman co-founded the brand in 2011, he wondered whether he could sell a simple t-shirt on the internet and turn that into a brand. His concept, tell people the true cost of a shirt and then sell it for less than anyone else, was a big hit. And for many years, the company grew at an eye-popping rate. But, as you will find out, the pandemic had other plans for Everlane, and its business took a pretty significant hit. Today, the company is back on a path towards profitability in large part because it has also narrowed some of its ambitions. Michael Praiseman didn't set out to have a career in fashion. He's the child of Russian immigrants and grew up in the 80s and 90s in the Silicon Valley. As a kid, perhaps not surprisingly, he was into computers. And after Michael graduated from college at Carnegie Mellon, he landed at a private equity firm in New York.
SPEAKER_01: And I'm just feeling a lot of angst. And the kind of angst that just feels like something's not right. And I didn't know what it was, but I remember, I don't think this can be my life. And I had this period of two to three months where I was trying to figure out, why am I feeling this way? What can I do about it? I did this one exercise and I remember I said, okay, I'm going to write down everybody I admire. And I wrote down my father. He had actually started a couple of businesses. I wrote down big names, Michael Eisner at the time, or Steve Jobs, Steve Wozniak. And they were kind of big names. But when I wrote down every single name, I realized not a single one worked in finance and all of them had operated or built something from scratch. And I said, oh, and that was the moment for me was as simple as that, that I realized I've got to go and start something. So you thought, all right, I've got to figure something out.
SPEAKER_00: And presumably you had a few years where you were watching startups and people pitch ideas and maybe some of those ideas you thought, well, this doesn't seem so complicated or maybe not.
SPEAKER_01: Oh, it definitely seemed complicated. And I will tell you, having had the chance to work in the finance side, it's a hard job, but it's a financially oriented low risk job. And so you look at your life and you say, hey, if I stick here and stay here, I'm made. I'm fine by all measure. And so to be in New York at that time, I started hanging out with entrepreneurs. But I had the fortune of having grown up in the Bay Area. So I'd been exposed to what you could call the best of the best. And I started hanging out with entrepreneurs and I just didn't feel the energy in New York. So it was the summer of 2010 and I actually packed up my bags and moved back to California and moved to San Francisco with the intention to start something or work for a very select few companies that I had on my list. All right.
SPEAKER_00: So you moved back to the Bay Area in 2010. And did you have any ideas at all? I had a little bit of an idea.
SPEAKER_01: What I was really inspired by at the time was this company that still exists in some shape or form called Gilt Group, which had really changed how people bought luxury online. No one had really bought luxury items online and all of a sudden Gilt Group came around during the recession and exploded because people could get Prada, Gucci, all these companies that say 50% off. And while it was a discount business, which isn't what I love, it was a eye opening experience that people were willing to buy these brands online. And the idea for me was really critical was I wasn't technical. Even though I studied computer engineering, I didn't code, which is strange. I don't know. It just never really sang to me. And so I was really set on finding a co-founder and I happened to link up with a really great guy, Jesse Farmer.
SPEAKER_00: And he was a coder. He was a technical guy.
SPEAKER_01: He's more than just, yeah, he's a technical product leader, but very technical and able to write code and did development and end to end.
SPEAKER_00: And you knew that whatever it is that you were going to start, you had the sort of the, you could handle the finance or maybe the business side, but you needed somebody who could handle the technical side because obviously this is going to be a digital based business.
SPEAKER_01: Yep. It was going to be digital based. And in the early days, it wasn't retail necessarily. Jesse and I were in explore mode, to be honest. We ended up at a place called Dogpatch Labs, which has a really storied history to it, but we ended up working there for a number of months just iterating through ideas.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah. And what do you do? You start talking about, like, what do you remember about ideas you talked about? Yeah, I can tell you there were a whole ton.
SPEAKER_01: So the question for us was, how can we rethink online shopping? What does that mean? And what can it look like? And we each put down, opened up a bank account and each committed and said, let's just put down $10,000.
SPEAKER_00: And the money being spent was to decide what this business was going to be, but you knew it was going to be an online retail. Yeah. And by the way, this is 2010. Yep.
SPEAKER_01: End of 2010 might be early 2011. And we were trying different things. So I'll give you an example. One of Jesse's big beliefs was building on top of audiences. And in the early days, we said, okay, let's see how we can rethink shopping. And we were looking at all kinds of different platforms. Etsy is an example. And we built a tool on top of Etsy that basically turned your Etsy shopping into feeds. And you could follow different shops and then you would get updates on their newest items. And it worked and it was very cool and a lot of people loved it. And then we realized very quickly that building a business on top of Etsy was a losing proposition. And so then we went from Etsy to Tumblr, which was a big platform at the time. And we said, why don't we see, can we build shopping on top of Tumblr? So we start building tools on top of Tumblr. So one of the thoughts for us was, can we build curation and can we create so much buzz around products that we can drive people to find the products they love, buy them, and then we would get an affiliate fee of some sort. And the concept was an iPhone case store. We would design iPhone cases based on the number of likes they got on Tumblr. We would actually put them into production and sell them.
SPEAKER_00: Where did you get the iPhone cases from?
SPEAKER_01: We went online and there was a place where you could upload graphics and then they would make iPhone cases on demand. Who was designing the cases? The cases were designed by a group of five or six different graphic freelancers we found. We would have people design very cool graphics of different sorts. Some culturally related, some beautiful, whatever. And we would post them on Tumblr and say, if this gets X number of likes, we'll make it and sell it. And then based on that, it would link to a store that we had where people could buy things. And indeed, people would like certain things, we'd put them up and they would sell. And it was sort of the beginning of creating this buzz and wait lists. But we were buying all of these iPhone cases from some site, I don't know, call it customiphonecases.com. And we would pay 20 bucks and sell them for 30. So the margin wasn't very good. We were making $10. And then we realized, huh, these $20 iPhone cases, I don't know how, why we made this assumption, but we made the assumption that they probably cost two or three dollars to make and that we're only making $10 but generating all the demand. And this custom iPhone case company is making a ton of money off of us. And that was this aha moment that said, wait, the markups in retail are actually pretty massive. And why don't we just become the manufacturer and sell direct to the consumer? And in at the time that we were building this iPhone case store, I do want to say that we had gone out and raised a small amount of money. And how much money do you raise? A million dollars. I guess it's not that small.
SPEAKER_00: No. And it was you raised that money in 2011 based on building an iPhone case store or was the pitch about doing other things? The pitch was building a new retail platform on top of Tumblr.
SPEAKER_00: Okay. And you would sell, you'd start with iPhone cases, but you could go into all kinds of accessories over time. You got it. Okay. Yep, exactly. And who gave you the money? Was it professional investors, venture capitalists? Was it friends and family?
SPEAKER_01: It was, you know, we just had a good network. And we were surrounded by people doing other interesting work. And so quickly people introduced us to the right people. And it was the, you know, famous SV Angel, Ron Conway. It was Kleiner Perkins put in a little bit of money. It was a whole host of different people that just said, hey, this sounds cool. Tumblr, shopping, these guys seem smart. We'll give them a shot. And when I go back to thinking about why I moved to California versus New York, that was the reason. The belief in California has always been give it a shot. Let's see what happens.
SPEAKER_00: One of the things that I read that you, while you were kind of searching around for ideas and what might work and what might not work is you reached out to a bunch of different entrepreneurs. And I know one of them was Dave Gilboa who started Warby Parker because you probably loved that brand and they were a hot brand. Tell me what you just reached out to him cold.
SPEAKER_01: I did. Dave was particularly helpful because indeed he had launched in 2010, I believe, or February 2010. So they were about a year and a half in. And I had, you know, we had just launched our iPhone cases and we said, wait a second, Warby's selling direct. Why can't we sell direct and build a brand around that? And Dave was just immensely helpful and just helping us think through the early days of what we were building. And I was learning what mattered from Dave. And then I remember in the early days also just learning how to manufacture because we decided we were going to be the manufacturer. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, obviously what Warby Parker did was they realized that glasses were being marked up extraordinarily high and that most glasses most people wore were controlled by one company, most brands. And so that model of like producing or owning a sort of the means of production and then lowering costs, that was their model. And so clearly that hadn't, you know, I imagine it inspired you to some extent.
SPEAKER_01: It inspired me and us in an immense amount. And what it was when we, I remember these iPhone cases, we realized the markups were so high and we said, okay, well, we're not going to start a company around iPhone cases, but what if we start a brand? And for whatever reason, it was, we realized that the basic t-shirt, you know, I remember loving a brand called James Purse that sold t-shirts at the time, $45. Now they're probably 80. And I found out those t-shirts cost $7, $6 to make. And that seemed borderline unethical, that a $7 t-shirt was marked up to $45 and the owner had no idea.
SPEAKER_00: Is it unethical or is it just capitalism? I mean, and that's the idealism I had in the early twenties.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah. Now you could say in the thirties, that's capitalism, good for you. And then you could say our version of capitalism was great. We're going to sell it for less and tell our story. But in the early days, it felt more than that. And it felt like there was an opportunity to reshape the industry. We said, if the basic t-shirt can be marked up seven times, let's build a brand around that concept because the t-shirt is the most basic part of a wardrobe.
SPEAKER_00: And these were plain t-shirts, just no design, no pockets, just a plain t-shirt.
SPEAKER_01: We did eventually have a pocket for sure. But yeah, in the early days it was plain t-shirts, good old plain, high-quality, sopema cotton t-shirts.
SPEAKER_00: So when you and Jesse were thinking about t-shirts, did you think about a full apparel company right away or did you think, let's start with t-shirts?
SPEAKER_01: We thought about it as a platform to launch product, not as much as a fashion brand. That came later. And this was a big point of one of those critical moments in the evolution of the company because we had raised our million dollars, maybe spent at this point, a hundred thousand of it. And we had signed up all these investors on the idea that we're going to build a retailer on top of Tumblr. And the belief was, let's ditch the retail platform. Let's ditch all this technology and let's go launch a brand. And in my head, I had this immense fear that our investors were going to say, this is not what I signed up for. And so I remember this moment where I draft up this long email about what the new plan
SPEAKER_01: is. We're going to shut all this stuff down and we're going to launch a brand and it's launching on this date. And I sat on this email and sat on this email and finally sent it to all of our investors expecting a bunch of people to say, what the hell are you doing? And for the first hour or two crickets and then three emails come in of the 30 or so investors we have that say, great, sounds good.
SPEAKER_01: And there again was that entrepreneurial spirit of whatever you need, just go do it.
SPEAKER_00: And you mentioned that when you found out that your $45 t-shirt costs $7, right? Did you think that, OK, we're just going to source those t-shirts from the same factories and sell them for less? Was that the idea?
SPEAKER_01: It should have been the idea, but the idea was we're going to source all the material and control the entire supply chain and then sell directly to the consumer. And what I mean by that is the difference is in one case you go to a manufacturer and you say, can you make me t-shirts and what are you going to charge me and I'll get the final product. And in the other one, we met a number of people down in Los Angeles and we bought the fabric. We learned how to do the patterns for the fabric. We had those patterns, what we call grading, so it can go from small to extra large. We learned every step of the process because there was this theory that if you're going to become a great chef, what you need to do is go to cooking school. And so we believed we had to go through, call it Apparel School 101. By the way, how did you come up with the name Everlane?
SPEAKER_01: Jesse and I were sitting in a room one day on instantdomainsearch.com and we were just for three hours typing in names, names, names, and I had a whole bunch of scratch. We liked the names that were simple and clear and all of a sudden typed in Everlane.com and it was available for $17 and we bought it. That was it. That was it. Because it doesn't mean anything.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it doesn't mean anything specific. There's no connection to, it could be a street, it could be a...
SPEAKER_01: It was the idea that it was everlasting and at the same time rooted to a physical place because we were digital. But people get really worked up about names. I think brands and people live into their names, the name becomes them. I'm less, I'm usually not that concerned. I don't think names matter that much. A big part of what we were trying to do was to do right where others do wrong and that's where the storytelling really came full front.
SPEAKER_00: Okay, let's talk about this right where others do wrong. You said in your view what others are doing wrong was they were overcharging for what it cost them, which again, I mean, that's for better or worse, that's business, right? That's how businesses work. They, in a movie theater, you go to the kids and popcorn and they're overcharging you for that popcorn like a thousand percent. Absolutely. That's how they make money. I understand you basically wanted to produce clothing and become an online retailer, but what else were you going to do that was different from other brands?
SPEAKER_01: When I say that do right where others do wrong, all of that came out over a period of time in a way that we really became students of the industry and tried to say if we were to build this from the ground up in a way that put the customer first, what would that look like? So pricing transparency was one. Customer experience, the customer experience, we really focused on the communication, the community really having an open dialogue with the consumer, which felt the opposite of what you actually experienced oftentimes in retail where you would go in and somebody might talk to you, somebody might not, getting help was challenging, knowing how to return things was challenging. So customer experience and customer service was always a big, big part of what we hung our hat on. Okay.
SPEAKER_00: I get the idea of customer service, but that wasn't new. I mean, you could go into Nordstrom or Neiman Marcus and get great customer service in 2011. You still can. What was going to be different about this? I mean, it was going to be cheaper for one, but what else?
SPEAKER_01: It really started out with pricing transparency and being honest about that.
SPEAKER_00: And when you say pricing transparency, what did that mean? You were going to tell the customer what it costs to make this product and why you're selling it for this price.
SPEAKER_01: We first started by selling a t-shirt for $15. That was the quality of a James purse for $45, $50 at the time.
SPEAKER_00: And how did you get those t-shirts made? Where did you get them made?
SPEAKER_01: In Los Angeles, end to end, we made them by sourcing the fabric. We used, out of the gate, Supima, which is the highest quality American cotton. Then finding people, I remember driving an hour with fabric and taking it to a grader who would grade it from extra small to large and then getting a cut. And then we would actually take it from the cutter to the sewer to the dyer to the finisher and then package it all up. And how much did it cost you to make each shirt? I think in the early days it was something like $560.
SPEAKER_00: How were you able to make the shirts for so little money? Is it because you guys were literally driving it from one part of the production process to the next?
SPEAKER_01: To me that was the secret of the whole industry. You're making the fabric might have been, I think, call it $1.50 to $2. The cutting, $0.45. The James purse cost $6, $7 to make too. And they were selling that for a 4 to 6x markup. And the basic principle of Everlane in the early days was 2 to 2.5x markup. That's it. And so, yeah, ours was a little bit cheaper out of the gate because we managed all the different steps ourselves. But eventually, a few months in, we contract manufactured with one vendor who actually managed all the processes for us.
SPEAKER_00: And they can make it all in Los Angeles. Correct. End to end. Yep. And the first run was going to be like, what, 1,000 t-shirts? Something like that?
SPEAKER_01: Oh, boy, yeah. The first run was 1,500 t-shirts. That's it. And we're probably, call this, we're in October now with a plan to launch November 1st.
SPEAKER_00: Of 2011. Yep.
SPEAKER_00: So, all right, so the idea was, let's get these shirts made, and then we're going to figure out how to sell them. You hadn't launched the company yet, right? There was nothing. Everlane.com was just a placeholder at that point.
SPEAKER_01: Yep, just a placeholder. Everlane, Jesse was building a lot of technology in the back end. And we had had a community, a small community that we had built through the different channels on Tumblr, and so you could call it, we had 5,000 to 10,000 people on an email list that we knew we could reach out to when ready.
SPEAKER_00: And did you have an office by that point?
SPEAKER_01: We had moved from Dogpatch Labs, because we overdid our stay there, to a place in the financial district in San Francisco. So, it was about 1,400 square feet.
SPEAKER_00: So, the idea was, let's sell the shirts at, we'll basically launch Everlane.com with this t-shirt sale. What were you going to sell the shirts for? $15.
SPEAKER_01: Got it. And we said, let's create a viral campaign, if we can. Wouldn't that be great? We signed up, I mean, it's sort of a dream, but how many people can we sign up before launch? So, we built a little landing page, and the landing page had a series of rewards you could get based on the number of people you invite.
SPEAKER_00: It was Everlane.com. And if you invite people, you offered, like, what kind of rewards?
SPEAKER_01: Free shipping for life was if you invited 50 people. If you invited five people, you got early acts of the wait list. If you invited 10 people, you got free shipping on your first order. So, it was like different tiers, and you could track where you were. It became a bit of a staple of Everlane over time, which is building wait lists, but that was our first one. And it was a really simple concept. It said, your luxury goods sell for eight times what they cost to make, not at Everlane. Launching November 1st at midnight. Sign up. But how did you get any attention for that page? That's where that first 5,000 to 10,000 email list came in. Okay. We emailed those 5,000 to 10,000 people with a really nice email and said, here it is, and you can sign up. And then we posted it on Twitter at the time and a couple other places. And next thing you know, I kid you not, this thing blows up, and we have 80,000 people. Sign up.
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
SPEAKER_01: 80,000 people.
SPEAKER_00: Did you say specifically how much less it was going to be?
SPEAKER_01: We didn't even tell people we were offering t-shirts. So I was freaked out. Okay. We were freaked out because we said, they think we're selling luxury goods for eight times what they cost to make. Let's see what happens. Yep. And so we had these 80,000 people and it felt really exciting, but it also felt very overwhelming. And we go, uh oh, we have way more demand than we have supply. And we don't even know if these people are going to be pissed off because actually what we're just selling is a t-shirt.
SPEAKER_00: When we come back in just a moment, Everlane causes a big stir in the fashion industry by telling people just how much their clothing actually costs. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This.
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SPEAKER_02: Hey, how I built this? My name is Eric Sedrans and I'm from Hilton Head, Iowa in South Carolina. Without a doubt, my favorite episode of all time is the Airbnb one. As an entrepreneur myself, I think back often to them selling Obama and McCain's cereal as the definition of an entrepreneurial move in doing whatever it takes to keep your business alive for just one more day.
SPEAKER_00: If you want to share your favorite episode of How I Built This, record a short voice memo on your phone telling us your name, where you're from, what your favorite episode is and why. A lot like the voice memo you just heard. And email it to us at hibt at id.wundere.com and we'll share your favorites right here in the ad breaks and future episodes. And thanks so much. We love you guys. You're the best. And now back to the show.
SPEAKER_00: Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. So it's 2011 and Everlane is hours away from launch with 1,500 t-shirts, a wait list of 80,000 people and a clear strategy for how to generate buzz.
SPEAKER_01: So we sent an email that says we have 80,000 people but can't let you all in. So you're now on a wait list to be let into everlane.com. And we put everlane.com behind a wall. And so we launched with 1,500 t-shirts and let 5,000 or 10,000 people in. But fortunately, we knew we could create another 5,000 t-shirts and then let the next tranche of people in. And so that really became the way we built a bit of the business and the momentum for the first year.
SPEAKER_00: Because you had another run of t-shirts. Did you sell all of them out relatively quickly?
SPEAKER_01: The first run sold out, I mean, it was 1,500 t-shirts times $15. It sold out in a day or two. I mean, quickly. And we did everything we did with cotton. And for a certain group of people, that's just Supima cotton, all what we call garment dyed. It was a higher quality product, without a doubt.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I get that. But how did you communicate that to people? Because most of the people on that email list were, you know, I would imagine, like most consumers are just looking for the best deal initially.
SPEAKER_01: Well, this is where, you know, I don't know, I believe that people are different than that for two reasons. One, it was a time and place. There were so few brands being launched on online. Now it's a dime a dozen all over the place. I think Instagram and TikTok have become the shopping malls of America, discovering small brands at the time. Instagram had just launched. In fact, we actually sat next to Mikey and Kevin when they launched Instagram because they were in Dogpatch Labs. But no one thought it was for shopping at the time. They were so saturated with discovery that it feels a bit banal that, OK, I discovered something new. Oh, I already heard about that. But back then it was a bit, even 10 years ago, very different pre the rise of TikTok and Instagram. And so there was one element of it that was, oh, there's something new online. And then another that was, this company's promising this quality and I'm interested in that. It's not just price. There's a story behind the price. And of course, I do think you're right. We did struggle with saying, how do people understand that our $15 t-shirt is really different when we're online? And so a month in at the end of November, we actually launched what started transparent pricing, which is we said, we've got nothing to lose. Why don't we tell people exactly what our costs are end to end?
SPEAKER_00: And how did you do that? How did you communicate that?
SPEAKER_01: We built an infographic that showed all the costs and we put it up on our product page and we put it up on Tumblr and we said, let it go. And it got picked up.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this was called the making of a designer tee. I'm looking at it now. It was, it's a wonderful infographic. It basically shows you the price that it costs to make a shirt. Cotton $2.75, cutting at 35 cents, sewing $1.35, dying 50 cents, finishing $1.25, transport $1.50, cost of the brand $6.70, sells to retailers for $15, sells to you for $50. So you put this infographic out there and lots of people see this. I mean, like this, this definitely goes viral.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah. It was a series of numbers, but it was very human in its own way that people felt like, oh, that's interesting. I never knew this information and now this company is sharing it. In a lot of ways, that's also what the internet's about, is exposing things that you didn't know before.
SPEAKER_00: So you put this infographic out and not surprisingly, it also irritated some people because they, you know, the accusation was, hey, this is a total oversimplification. Like this is not actually accurate. And you know, I mean, one of the things to be fair that the infographic doesn't explain is the cost of manufacturing the shirt $6.70 and then the wholesaler, the factory sells it to the retailer for $15. But then there's that, the $15 to $50 gap involves a lot of marketing costs. I mean, you could make the case about like a pair of Gucci slippers. Like there are factories in Italy that can make the same slippers for, you know, $60. Why are they $900? Because you're paying for the brand. So that's the, I mean, the costs, the associated costs at that point were because these companies were building a brand and they had to pay for it.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah. And they had wholesalers and they had profit margins, if you're Gucci, of 30%. And we had the fortune of being small and at that time being very, very simple. So we just sold direct and shared our model and yeah, they didn't like it, but that's to your point, perhaps capitalism.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah. There was a, the blog Well Spent wrote, this is a, I guess, a fashion blog or, you know, consumer fashion brand. They wrote, my issue with the graphic is it's a dangerous oversimplification. Essentially Everland is attempting to demonize any clothing company charging greater than 2.25% in manufacturing costs. And that's ludicrous. So you're, you know, you kind of create a stir, but you guys, it seems like that was part of, that was kind of the hope that that would happen. Without a doubt. That was fun. Yeah. So you do the second run and you keep selling out shirts. And by the way, I mean, your response to attacks from people who represented, you know, retail groups is like, listen, we're an online business. And so we don't have to, there's no middleman. So at what point, you know, and this is too, now you're getting into 2012 and you're getting a lot of attention from obviously as you know, people are buying these shirts, you're getting immediate attention. At what point did you say, all right, we've got to make other things besides t-shirts?
SPEAKER_01: That actually came, I think December 1st, 2011. We had found, and again, the idea of Everland was really a platform for going direct to consumer. And so the strangest thing you would never expect if you were to build a brand today and you start with a t-shirt, your next product might be denim and then you might do sweaters and then you might do button downs and build a merchandise, a line appropriately. Our next product, because we had no contacts in the industry was literally ties and bow ties. Ties and bow ties. Ties and bow ties made in a factory in the Bronx that manufactured everything for Brooks Brothers. Wow. And we sold them for $35 and we bought 1200 ties and bow ties.
SPEAKER_00: It's a very unusual, I mean, given how obviously how thoughtful you guys were about t-shirts and about direct to consumer and talking to all these people in the apparel industry and talking to Warby Parker, it just seems like a kind of a, just throwing a dart at a dartboard. Let's do bow ties. You are correct. It's weird. It is weird. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: I don't have a great explanation for you other than I was, we didn't have a lot of connections and it was, we would have to wait six to 12 months to be able to launch a sweatshirt and a sweater and a button down because that's how long it would take us to find the factory, source the fabric. And our alternative was we had a guy that could make ties and bow ties in two months and we just said, let's do that. And it was always, let's try it. If it doesn't work, move on.
SPEAKER_00: And how did those do?
SPEAKER_01: We never made ties and bow ties again. Let's just put it that way. Yeah. I think we ended up potentially giving some away.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah. I mean the bow tie, like the Venn diagram of like hipsters and I guess cheap apparel and Brooklyn, I guess the middle of that is a bow tie, but it's not a big enough, like there were, you know, right. There's a bow tie thing. You had like people with the, you know, handlebar mustaches and leather aprons and bow ties walking around urban areas for a while, but that wasn't a very long lasting thing. So I can't imagine like, you know, you could really build a business on the bow tie.
SPEAKER_01: I think it was just, we wanted to get things out the door and we had a factory and we said, go. And indeed, other than us talking about this today, nobody who shops on everlean.com knows this story.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah. You, I think your co-founder Jesse left. One month in. One month in, not in 2012, he left in 2011. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: He left in December of 2011. Why? I'm sure you've had many of these conversations. The co-founder journey is, it's a challenging one because in some ways you're getting married to somebody, but then you're spending all this time and building a business with them. At the end of the day for Jesse, what he wanted was to build a technology business. And what we moved away from was being a technology business. And we moved into building a brand and that wasn't the journey he wanted to be on. And I commend him a lot for making that decision because I don't think a lot of people would be able to do that. This was even before we launched, he said, hey, I'm going to bow out. I'm going to help you launch and then you need to find another tech person. And I remember that being so stressful and was fortunately able to find somebody, an individual named Nan Yu, who was both an engineer and incredibly well versed in fashion and style that became our head of engineering and was at the company for six, seven years building the team. So it was a very stressful period though.
SPEAKER_00: What's amazing to me is that he clearly already a year in, you did not like what Everlane became known for and what it became known as was not what you were at the time. You didn't like bake this into the beginning of like, we are going to be an apparel brand that does basics. Like that was, you know, the transparent pricing was part of it. That was not, it was almost like, to overuse this metaphor, you were flying a plane and building it and you were also selling things in passengers in the plane.
SPEAKER_01: And we were selling them anything we could, you know, bring into the plane basically.
SPEAKER_00: So this was really, it was not clear. Like you weren't really sure what you were even at that point.
SPEAKER_01: The business model was clear, which was direct to consumer. But are we a fashion brand? Are we a basics brand? Are we a platform for products that's just a retailer? We didn't go into it with that idea. We went into it with how do we sell directly to the consumer, high quality product and tell a story around it.
SPEAKER_00: Okay. Did you, just out of curiosity, did you have, and there's no judgment if you didn't, because I have plenty of great companies who didn't do this, but did you, do you feel like you had baked mission, the mission into the, into the company from the beginning or would that come later?
SPEAKER_01: Spiritually yes. Written down, no. But you know, there was an external line, the luxury essentials under $100, your luxury goods sell for eight times what it costs to make. There was a spirit of let's build a brand that's honest with the consumer.
SPEAKER_00: But that would imply. Again, I'm pushing back only because, and this is part of my job, but I mean, that would imply that the other, the other retailers were dishonest with the consumer. Is that, is that true? Is that what you were implying?
SPEAKER_01: So you have an interesting distinction there because what started as honesty became transparency. And that was the evolution. Because it, to us, felt dishonest. And then I think there was a point where we realized actually they're not dishonest. They're just doing what they're doing. But the vehicle that we can have that's different is transparency. And that's how that transparency graphic got born. And that's how we started to tell people, here's what we're making next. Do you want to vote on it? Tell us what you think of this product. Give us feedback. Everything was out in the open. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: And I guess kind of on the subject of what you're making next, I guess as you're kind of looking for the next product, you land on backpacks next, which is interesting. We did a Herschel supply company on the show not too long ago. It's a fascinating story about, you know, backpacks and why they went into that. So it was around this time, really, you go into backpacks thinking, okay, this could be our next thing. And just out of curiosity, why backpacks?
SPEAKER_01: I think exactly to what you said, there was the moment of Herschel, there was a trend happening, and we've had a connection to a factory.
SPEAKER_00: And your business model enabled this kind of quick pivoting. You could basically identify something that was hot, make it quickly, make a limited number, sell them out, then move on to the next thing.
SPEAKER_01: Yep. And not only that, but we could pre-sell things, which, you know, wasn't a thing people could do back then.
SPEAKER_00: I have to assume, I mean, that million dollars that you raised was not going to be enough. I mean, how were you able to do the backpacks? Did you have to raise more money?
SPEAKER_01: It was March 2012, I believe, when we raised our next amount of money. We had been doing about $100,000 to $200,000 a month, but selling out every month. Hmm, it's pretty good. Yeah, it was nice. It was a good run. And then we went out to raise, I think we raised $2.5 million at that point just because the business was working and we were in the early days of the D to C. Boom. And that allowed us to take the business to the next stage and allowed us to buy backpacks. I mean, one of the biggest costs for us at the time was inventory, just buying new product. Because we didn't have great, what you call, terms with factories. It took a while to get us to a place where we could actually have a relationship with factories and pay them 60 days after delivery. A lot of times we were paying upfront, and that was very expensive. And then fast forwarding a bit to November 1, 2012, we had launched backpacks. We were building a merchandising strategy. We launched button-downs, silk shirts, and a cashmere.
SPEAKER_01: And so we built all this hype. And we stayed up till 2 a.m. on November 1, 2012, our one-year anniversary. And at 2 a.m., we launched the products on the site, and all of a sudden sales spike. And we did, at 2 in the morning, an entire day's worth of sales in 20 minutes. And we thought that the site was broken and something had glitched. And then we verified every order by hand. And indeed, people had stayed up till 2 in the morning waiting for our Oxfords and silk and cashmere to launch. And that was one of those moments that we said, well, we might have something here.
SPEAKER_00: When we come back in just a moment, Michael rethinks Everlane's growth strategy and its approach to radical transparency. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This. Give yourself the gift of insane savings this holiday season with Mint Mobile's best wireless deal of the year. Right now, when you switch to Mint Mobile and buy any three-month plan, you'll get another three months for free. That's six months of premium wireless service for the price of three. Mint Mobile lets you order and activate from home while saving tons on phone plans starting at just $15 a month. Seriously, I can't think of a better gift than turning an overpriced wireless bill into just $15 a month with Mint Mobile. I was blown away by how much money I was able to save each month by switching to Mint Mobile. That is money back that I'm able to put towards going out to dinner with my wife. And switching to Mint Mobile is really easy. I didn't have to change phone lines. I kept my same number. My contacts all imported over really easily. It was incredibly seamless. For a limited time, buy any three-month Mint Mobile plan and get three more months free by going to mintmobile.com slash built. That's mintmobile.com slash built. Cut your wireless bill to $15 a month at mintmobile.com slash built. Raise the bar of your entertainment with Sonos Beam, the compact, smart soundbar for TV, music and more. Enjoy panoramic sound for shows, movies and games when the TV is on, and stream music, podcasts and more when it's off. Precision engineered, then fine-tuned by Oscar and Grammy-winning producers, Beam delivers crystal-clear dialogue and powerful bass. In fact, I have one in my house, and it is amazing. It sounds a little like a cliché, but it does sound like you are there in the room with the performers when you listen to it. The setup is practically plug-and-play. The Sonos app walks you through getting started step-by-step, including syncing your TV remote, connecting your music services, and adding a voice assistant. I even did it myself, and it took me, I don't know, like five minutes. There's a speech enhancement mode, which is perfect for when you're watching a movie and the characters are whispering, or the action intensifies, or there's a night sound which can kind of tone down loud effects when other people at home are trying to work or sleep. Head over to Sonos.com and enjoy up to 25% off select products right now through November 27th, or while supplies last. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. So it's 2012, a year after launch, and Everlane has done about $4 million in revenue. A year later, they're up to $12 million, and the year after that? They basically double it to $24 million in sales. Was that growth, I mean, were you spending any money on marketing? Was it just, it's hard for me to believe that it was entirely organic. It was almost all organic.
SPEAKER_01: It was people were talking about the brand, telling the story. Commerce is one of the oldest forms of communication, and it's a form of trade, and it's such a backbone of culture. And particularly in America, people love to buy things and tell you what they bought. And so if you made things that were interesting and people wanted to talk about them, listen, we're not building iPhones, but talk about someone who did that well, or Nike. It's like people line up for days. And in that way, we were building things that had limited quantities and people were talking about it.
SPEAKER_00: So as you were growing, I mean, I have to imagine it became fairly easy for you to raise money. You had investors who were really desperately trying to get into this business.
SPEAKER_01: We definitely had the opportunities. And so we raised $25 million in total, and we were profitable. And that was the year 2017, which was a hugely pivotal year for Everlane, when we went from $53 million to $100 million in one year.
SPEAKER_00: Tell me about, I mean, before that time. I mean, I have to imagine, because this is a natural progression for certain types of companies, especially when they're doing well very early, is grow, grow, grow, grow, grow. And I have to imagine that was your view, that let's just go crazy. Let's grow this thing massively. Definitely.
SPEAKER_01: And it was the right decision. But the decision I would have made now, and I think everybody's making even today, is that when we hit $100 million and we were profitable, that it was the time to transition from growing what we call the top line, which is the revenue, to growing the bottom line. So when we did call it $3, $4 million of profit, the focus should have been how do we build and discipline and get this to $10 million next year and then $20 million the year after, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Because how do we grow the top line at the expense of the bottom line?
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you start this thing in 2011. By the end of 2013, you've got $13, $12 million in sales. So you're running not an insignificant business now with 25, 30, 40 employees. And you were still a young guy. How were you learning about how to be a leader? I mean, I have to assume that at times you did it badly.
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely. And I was 27, 28 at the time. What we did really well, and I guess what I did well, was we built a very entrepreneurial culture. Blair, who was a creative at the team, said one of her favorite lines was, we have one founder and 60 CEOs. And there was this mentality that everybody contributed and everybody did every job, no matter how small. When we opened up many years later, our first store, people were at the store for four days in a row, engineers, helping set up a physical store. And these were engineers who were really technical and mostly spent their time in a digital world. The part that was just the total mess was there were certain areas like marketing and creative that honestly we were trying to reinvent and it was hard to find the talent and I didn't know what great looked like. So I didn't know what a great head of design or great head of marketing looked like. And so I'll tell the story we hired at one point in 2015. We go from t-shirts to backpacks to let's literally go hire one of the greatest designers in the world. And we hired this one, Rebecca Bay, who came from a company called Koss and then was actually the creative director of Gap for a year and a half. And we built an office for her in New York. And I was just such a micromanager at the time that I think I drove her so nuts. She made it. She made it about a year and a half and she really created a new foundation of design. And we're good friends today, but it was definitely a tough period of over micromanaging. What did micromanaging look like? Hey, why aren't we doing this? Why are we doing that? Just constant questions. It's managing the process versus managing the outcome and not letting someone as great as her do her job.
SPEAKER_00: So I want to ask you about the other side of the brand, because you're big at your core, it was radical transparency around pricing. But that would evolve. That would grow to radical transparency about other things, too, not just pricing. It grew into transparency around where the clothing is made, how it's made. This became much more important to consumers in the 2010s as people were learning about where their clothes were made, what the environmental costs were, et cetera. Tell me about how you came to this view about, hey, let's tell everybody everything about how we make our stuff and what the conditions are like in the factories. In 2013, there were a couple of key events that happened for us.
SPEAKER_01: One is we had started to manufacture in China, and we really wanted to understand are the factories we're working with in China high quality. And myself and a few of us went to China and we basically live blogged the entire week talking about the factories, sharing the stories inside so people could see what was going on. Also on every label, we would name the city where things were made, not just the country. We wouldn't say imported. And then, of course, in 2013, there's the unfortunate collapse in Bangladesh, of Rana Plaza. And people realized that perhaps some of the clothes they're wearing was made there. And that connected the dots for us of let's not just live blog this, let's connect every product we make with every factory we work with and also the cost. And it was essentially like we're giving away our secret sauce, because normally if you're another brand and you want to know where someone makes things, it's almost impossible. You can't find out where a luxury brand makes its products. But here we were for the industry and for the consumer saying this T-shirt or this bag was made exactly in this factory and it cost us exactly this much. But at the same time, that means you're going to be held to a different standard.
SPEAKER_00: In any slip up, you're in trouble. Like your factories better be ethical. Your pricing better be ethical. Your environmental record better be, you know, I mean, if you're going to put yourself out there, you also are going to make yourself vulnerable to charges of hypocrisy if you're not hitting those standards all the time.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah. In 2017, something happened, which is we we've launched denim and by all measures, you should have launched denim. Like we should have launched denim in 2012. It took us a while. And part of that while was that denim just as hard to fit. And then we didn't know how we were going to do it differently. And what ended up being the difference was that we found this incredible factory called Cytex run by a wonderful human, Sanjeev, where they take the denim and denim is a product that you actually dye and then you undyed to get that faded look as if you've been working through the denim over a period of time. And they take the dye stuff and detoxify it and turn it into actually bricks that you can use. And that really opened up a whole new path of what is our impact on this world? And we're going to start moving towards sustainability or environmental consciousness. Did that actually did that matter to consumers?
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I know people say it does, but I mean, what is there evidence that consumers care? I believe we have some data to support that it creates resonance with the brand.
SPEAKER_01: But when it comes to the individual buying decision of do I buy this coat versus that coat? The answer is usually not so much, especially today. But they do want to participate with brands that do better for this world. And that that is true. But how much? And Michael, I'm not and I'm asking this question not to sort of accuse you of Everlane
SPEAKER_00: of like doing good just because it's good for PR. But I am curious about certain things and not just Everlane, other companies do it too. Isn't it enough to just say, you know, our value proposition is we're going to make a great high quality product at a fair price. And that's it. Isn't that enough? Or do you think that it has to be more than that, that it's got to be ethically made ethically sourced? I used to I think now what I would say is it's whatever is right for you.
SPEAKER_01: I have a lot more admiration and respect than I used to for people that for these luxury businesses that create incredible, beautiful product, tell beautiful stories and make their 30% profit. And that's totally fine. It was also a very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very disrespected. And so this respect for others that perhaps changes as you grow up and face your own set of challenges and realize maybe there's a reason they do things the way they do, because as long as they're doing to your point, capitalism, but as long as they're content and it's working for them and they're not inflicting harm and other people are into it, power to you.
SPEAKER_00: Up until that point, you mentioned 2017, you hit profitability, you're doing $100 million. And so at that point, it was like, OK, let's just grow. And looking back on that time today, you would have made different decisions. You would have focused on increasing the bottom line rather than just focusing on the top line. As more competitors started to jump into direct to consumer or online, let's say retail. Did you start to see the business slow down?
SPEAKER_01: I think that's hard to say. I think whenever you grow 100 percent, you can't grow like that forever. But I mean, the next year we grew 50 to 70 percent and the next year after that, we grew another 30 to 50 percent. So it was, wow, this is an incredible run. I mean, we had these opportunities where we launched everything from an entire collection of outerwear made from recycled materials, called it Renu. We launched stores in San Francisco, New York, L.A. You launched brick and mortar stores. Yep. We didn't think we would need stores. And this is one thing I would say we did do well is we listened to the consumer and we had these pop ups and showrooms and people were showing up and they were asking us to open up a store. And so we listened and it worked tremendously. Well, but but as you focused on growth, the the returns, you also had to compete against
SPEAKER_00: Uniqlo and and, you know, even Amazon was getting into apparel. So did you start to see you got from profitability, presumably to losing break even
SPEAKER_01: break even and then losing a bit of money in 2019? Nothing. You know, when you think about it, it was nothing extraordinary because it was the days of venture that says, oh, there's the business to be had here. And so a lot of people fund and then, you know, people are willing to lose money and drive growth. And so we we started to manage against that and started running paid ads and the business continued to grow. But the profit didn't grow as fast because we were investing more in marketing to drive the business. So one of the I mentioned this earlier, which is when you you know, when
SPEAKER_00: you are focused on doing the right thing, which I think is important and something that as a show, we support and want businesses to do, but it also makes you target. Right. And so in 2019, there was a rating company called Good On You and they gave you two out of five rating for your you know, because they they said that you weren't tracking greenhouse gases and that you weren't guaranteeing living wages or reducing water use. And there were people who were like, yeah, see that company there, the do gooders, and now they're you know, they've been exposed or, you know, something like that. And there were people who said that.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, in some ways, I remember the first reaction around that being like frustrated and upset. And then the next reaction was great, let's do something about it. So what did you do? We started tracking our greenhouse gases, we started working with our factories on how do we reduce our emissions, we made a commitment to remove all virgin plastic from our supply chain, we're 95% of the way there, we've replaced some 70 80% of our wool to be recycled, same thing on cashmere. So the amount of product we're using that's now recycled and the way we're doing everything to lead across all metrics. And I think doing a very good job of it now.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah. All right, you're, you know, plugging along, and then bam, COVID happens. And you're a little bit different than other retailers because you weren't selling office clothing necessarily. But this this proved to be, I think, this is gonna be an understatement, an extremely challenging time for Everlane.
SPEAKER_01: First, I would say thanks, Guy, for reminding me about this wonderful time in my life. I really appreciate it. And and then I would say, walking into 2020, we had this great plan, we're going to start investing in being a brand instead of just a price transparency retailer. And then we had we're in the midst of fundraising, by the way, because we needed money for inventory and for retail, which was working really well. And then COVID hits. And it is just to every retailer, I mean, it was a brick wall. We started to look at the, well, actually, we were in the midst of fundraising, and we don't have enough cash, you know, never walk into a crisis low on cash, we need the cash. And so we started to have to cut costs. And, you know, some companies did it later. We did it pretty early on. And that started to set a pretty fast tone of how do you manage a community that was so tight knit at that time, through crisis.
SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about a couple of in many crises that happened in the midst of this, right? One was a group of employees were let go, they claimed because they had intended to unionize, and that they wanted to discuss their salaries with each other in the spirit of radical transparency, which they were discouraged from doing it everly. Let me just caveat this by saying, me personally, I think, I think radical transparency can be hugely problematic. I don't necessarily think it's good for everybody to know about everybody else at all times. I think there's value in some discretion. But that happened at Everlane. And all of a sudden, people are saying, hey, this is the radical transparency company. They're not allowing transparency.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I, you are completely right. And I had always said, transparency is great. And then it also has downsides. I mean, I don't even, it's hard to trust the government. But at the same time, I don't want to know every decision that the government's making all of the time. I don't want to know the sausage is always made, because sometimes it takes backroom
SPEAKER_00: deals. It has to.
SPEAKER_01: Yep. And also it takes time to make decisions. And if you're informed about every decision every time, all you're going to do is induce anxiety. Paralysis, by the way, nothing would get done.
SPEAKER_01: Yep. But for us, it was Everlane, to your point, was on a pedestal. We were far from perfect in a lot of areas where we went ahead of HR, but not a chief HR officer for a company with a few hundred people. And so the processes weren't there. And without processes, you create a place where things aren't always seemingly as equitable or fair. And that came to bear for a lot of other sort of companies of our time, because we had all ushered in this, hey, we can build a company, do good, be transparent and treat everyone well, our customers, our employees, our factories. And then COVID happens and it's sort of like, how do you do right anywhere when everything goes wrong?
SPEAKER_00: I've been thinking a lot about what happened with a lot of companies and still is happening to some extent. They started with this premise that you're part of a mission and the mission is transparency and openness, whatever it might be. It's making the world a better place. And employees believe that that was their role. And I wonder whether some of that tension, because you had employees who were really mad and, you know, and lots of companies did. And I wonder whether some of that comes from that idea that all of a sudden they're like, wait, my mission is to make money for the company? I don't know. Does any of that resonate with you? It completely resonates.
SPEAKER_01: We were in a massively funded environment where profit didn't matter to an environment where all of a sudden profit did matter. And top line sales are getting challenged for a lot of people, especially the first three to six months of COVID. So people are making tough decisions. And it was the first time going from infinite opportunity to wait a second. We have to make some tough decisions. And by the way, those tough decisions are about employees. And they go, well, I was already might have been a little frustrated about this and that that happened in the past. And now I'm just pissed. Yeah, I don't necessarily blame employees, especially younger employees, for feeling that
SPEAKER_00: way because they were promised a mission.
SPEAKER_01: Completely agree. I don't blame them at all. And listen, I think that's the opportunity is to be clear on expectations, but in a lot of ways also employees have made it clear on what what they expect both ways. That expectation is very, very valuable and very helpful.
SPEAKER_00: You came out of COVID and you stepped down as CEO to become executive chairman. And I imagine that was a relief, a little bit of a relief to those probably the toughest two years of your career at Everlane.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was a time where Brian, who was on our board, and Betsy had spent a lot of time with me saying, Is this really what you want to do for the next 510 years? And I think that's an important question, because you've probably spoken to so I mean, you have spoken to so many founders here. And some are lifers, and some are not. For there was a moment in time where I imagined my life being a lifer. And the more I thought about it, I was like, Wait, I don't, I'm not the best person to run a fashion brand that's sustainable. So for us continuing to double down on the environmental side of what we do, while building a growing and profitable business is really critical. And it's, that's where I go back to, I still am involved in the company quite closely. And it's a fun and self reflective experience to be able to exit something. But still involved in it, and watch that almost separation. I imagine one day it's like having kids and letting them go to college.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but I wonder, just from a personal side, it's your whole identity, right? And so did you struggle with that? I mean, all of a sudden, you're going from like, you're the guy, everyone's calling. You're the person that you're making the final decisions to, all of a sudden, your phone's not ringing as much.
SPEAKER_01: It rang in a different way. But yeah, I struggled with it. But also, and this is, I'm sure you say this of many founders, but it's also true of anyone that works at any company for a period of time that you can never take away that period of someone's life. You know, you're still the founder, or you're still the creative director of a company, or you're still the, you help build something. And so now it's just a part of my identity. It's not my identity.
SPEAKER_00: When you think back on the journey that you've been on, you did very well and still own a considerable amount of this company. And so it's made you wealthy and successful. How much of where you are now do you attribute to luck? And how much of it do you think has to do with your skill and your intelligence and your work, hard work?
SPEAKER_01: It's hard to know. I, you know, I, somebody once said, your goal is to do as many things as possible to get yourself in a place of luck happening to you. And so when you asked that question, it was so weird that we launched ties and bow ties, but at the same time, it was this unfettered attitude of just go try things so that luck could happen to us. So I think part of it is being quick and thoughtful and moving and understanding the world around you to put yourself in the pathway of luck as often as possible.
SPEAKER_00: That's Michael Praiseman, founder of Everlane. By the way, if you search the brand's Tumblr archive, you can actually see an example of one of their ill-fated bow ties. There's a picture of one of them. It's kind of a nice looking navy blue one with daisies on it. And it's kind of a shame that they're no longer selling them because they're pretty cool. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show. This week, please make sure to click the follow button on your podcast app so you never miss a new episode of the show. And as always, it's free. This episode was produced by J.C. Howard with music composed by Ramtin Arogloui. It was edited by Neva Grant with research help from Sam Paulson. Our audio engineers were Gilly Moon and Robert Rodriguez. Our production staff also includes Casey Herman, Kerry Thompson, Alex Chung, Melia Agudelo, John Isabella, Chris Mussini, Carla Estevez and Katherine Seifer. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to How I Built This. If you like how I built this, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.
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