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Schwab Investing Themes is not intended to be investment advice or a recommendation of any stock or investment strategy.Learn more at schwab.com slash thematic investing. Hey, it's Guy here.And before we start the show, I want to tell you about a super exciting thing.We are launching on How I Built This.So if you own your own business or trying to get one off the ground, we might put you on the show.Yes, on the show.And when you come on, you won't just be joining me, but you'll be speaking with some of our favorite former guests who also happen to be some of the greatest entrepreneurs on earth. And together, we'll answer your most pressing questions about launching and growing your business.Imagine getting real-time branding advice from Sunbum's Tom Rinks or marketing tips from Vaughn Weaver of Uncle Nearest Whiskey.
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Hello and welcome to How I Built This Lab.I'm Guy Raz.So as you know, we've heard from lots of entrepreneurs on the show who've created incredibly successful brands.And in a way, we like to think of our show as sort of like a masterclass in business from hundreds of founders. And every once in a while, we bring someone on who actually teaches masterclasses, someone with a 35,000-foot view on creating a business who studied why some businesses succeed and others fail.Today, we're going to meet Rene Mabourne, an economics professor at the business school INSEAD and co-author of bestsellers like Blue Ocean Strategy, Blue Ocean Shift, and most recently, Beyond Disruption. Renee and her co-author Chan Kim have spent decades looking into how companies can find huge opportunities, sometimes hiding in plain sight.And as they describe it, if you can find the blue ocean, an untapped market, then your company will leap in value and unlock new demand. Renee was an undergraduate studying economics at the University of Michigan in the 1980s when she became fascinated by how businesses survive.And she saw firsthand what was going on in nearby Detroit at the time as the bottom started to fall out of the auto industry.
SPEAKER_00: Detroit had become a ghost town.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: It was completely emptied out.The Rust Belt of America was being formed at that moment. And all the articles in the press talked about that the best days of America were behind it.And whether it was earth-moving equipment or automotives or textiles, consumer electronics, all of them were in decline.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: And we asked ourselves, you know, is competing necessarily the best path?So the articles all focused on at the time, How do you survive in this intense competition?And our interest was not how to survive, but how to thrive.And who are the companies that are thriving in spite of this?What are they doing differently, if anything at all?And can we map out an understanding of what is allowing them to break out of this intense competition?And that resulted in our first article, Value Innovation.
SPEAKER_01: And that eventually led to this grand theory, which, again, is one of the most influential business theories the past 50 years called Blue Ocean Strategy, which essentially, and I'm going to paraphrase it, but you'll do a better job at giving a better explanation, is that there are essentially two oceans in business, a red ocean, which is where everybody is, and it's red because they're constantly trying to undermine each other and they're competing for market share.And so it's a bloody ocean.And there's a blue ocean where there essentially is no competition.Nobody's even thinking of that kind of industry or those opportunities.
SPEAKER_00: Correct.So, you know, and the Red Ocean is really existing industries.If you look at what strategy historically has always been, it's been about how do you compete?How do you analyze an existing industry, benchmark the competition within it, and position yourself in that industry in order to succeed?So that was the one half, and we call that market competing strategy.And because that existing industry was so intense, there was so many margin pressures, we started to call that the Red Ocean of Bloody Competition. And in contrast, we saw some companies, they weren't competing in those red oceans.They were creating their own markets.They were breaking and redefining the boundaries.And in those industries, there was no competition.
It was wide open and untainted.And that became what we call the blue ocean strategy.So we saw there was those two universes, but most companies' effort and energy was all in the competing.And we asked the question, why?Why should strategy only be competing when the other half of strategy is also about creating
SPEAKER_01: So you started to look at some examples of this, and one of them seems counterintuitive, but it's a great example because it fits right into it, is Cirque du Soleil.And by the way, the founder is going to be on this show later in the year.How did Cirque du Soleil become, in your mind, an archetypal example of the blue ocean strategy?
SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, it operated and in the circus industry was in decline for years.Everyone claimed young people were crying out for video games.No one wanted to go see the animals and get peanuts in the tents. And so the industry was essentially written off as a declining industry.And, you know, Guy Laliberté and his team, their first circus that they created was called We Reinvent the Circus.And the beauty of it was they were able in doing that by the leap in value they provided to lift the price point of the industry and bring in all new customers to it.And one of the fundamental keys in Blue Ocean is that the more you focus on benchmarking your competition... We do that in an intent to stand out, but ironically, it helps us commoditize our own industry, and we end up in a continuous drive of imitation, driving us right into where we don't want to be, commoditization and Me Too offerings. Cirque du Soleil was a beautiful example.It achieved differentiation at low cost, created new market space, but we started the book with it because it was one that people, no matter what their background is, can relate to, can understand, and can see the difference between these two paradigms and way of thinking about the industries.
SPEAKER_01: I want to dive so deeply into this.We've done so many companies that are examples of this.And I wonder whether Blue Ocean Strategy requires you to jump into an entirely new space or can you create a Blue Ocean Strategy as an offshoot of an existing strategy? saturated industry.For example, the automotive industry.I think of a brand like Rivian.And R.J.Scaringe, what he single-mindedly wanted to build were electric trucks, pickups, and SUVs.Nobody was doing it.Companies were focused entirely on the small sedans.
And now he has some competition.Tesla has a car and Ford has one.But they really are kind of the gold standard for electric trucks at the moment.And I wonder whether that kind of company could be considered an example of this.
SPEAKER_00: Well, for Rivian, I'd need to really look into it because, you know, Blue Ocean Strategy Value Innovation has a series of metrics.So one, is there compelling value to the marketplace?Or am I just differentiation with a higher price point?How accessible is the mass of buyers, right?So you not only have a compelling wantingness to buy a product, but for the mass of the market you're going for, a compelling ability to pay for that.So with Rivian, I would want to go through that and think to myself, systematically, maybe what they've done right now is created this new market.I think Tesla's creating this blue ocean, right?It's going deep and wide and it's lower down.
SPEAKER_01: Well, let's talk about Tesla for a moment because, I mean, it seems like that's a company that you have looked into and a company that did do many of the things that Blue Ocean companies do.It created an uncontested market space for a time.Now, of course, it's contested by some of the big Chinese electric car makers.But it didn't worry about competing against Ford and Chrysler and And Honda and Toyota, it was trying to capture an entirely new market.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.So I think the last thing Tesla did was try to benchmark the competition because if he did, the car wouldn't look anything like what it does today, right?
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: And I think a lot of companies get distracted by the competition.And Tesla systematically has been trying to drop the cost structure of that car as well, drop the price point to open up bigger and bigger mass volumes once they prove the concept of the car.And now with all the robotics, again, trying to higher quality, lower cost, run it like a tight mean machine and not compromise style and get the long duration of the battery, of course, right?Because that's a weakness for e-cars.
SPEAKER_01: Do you think that a brand that tries to be disruptive, like, you know, we've done Harry's Razors, for example.Gillette dominates razors.Or another recent example is Liquid Death.It's one of the most saturated markets in the world.Water, bottled water. And Mike Cesario entered that saturated market, and within two years, they're close to $200 million in revenue.He's created a very significant brand through branding.So it's not necessarily a Blue Ocean product, but still it's had a significant impact on And if you listen to that episode of the show, it's almost like a masterclass in branding.I mean, I think he would argue, I don't want to speak for him, that brand trumps function any day.
Do you think that in the end, there's a case to be made for branding as a strategy in a red ocean?
SPEAKER_00: So first, you know, what you're telling me about the two examples, both in razor and in water, what that really shows is that in every red ocean, there are possibilities for growth when you dare to think differently and stop focusing on just benchmarking your competition, even when you go up with it. company like Gillette, which is just the master of all the razors, right?We would argue that your brand is determined by your price versus the utility that you offer.When my price versus utility that I offer is dramatic and I offer a leap in value at a reasonable price point, I automatically have brand.I automatically get people doing word of mouth praise.I automatically get people giving me five stars.That said, There are cases where brand in itself can start to become like Ralph Lauren.He did things very differently, but he was selling a dream.He was selling a dream to people that you too could be part of this, you know, old European kind of refined elite, which worked very well for many, many years.
Yeah. So when you're talking about liquid death, you know, he's trying to sell a vision, a lifestyle, a way of thinking about it.And that can be well.But what I want to say is challenge yourself knowing that maybe the dream won't last forever and you need to deliver on that dream. And make sure on your strategy canvas, when you look at the utility you're offering at that price point, that total value you're offering really is going to make people recommend you.Because there are many brands that come up that are really cool and everybody wants to wear their label or on their hat and talk about it. But then maybe two years later.
SPEAKER_01: That's it.
SPEAKER_00: That's it.Yeah.And so that's the real question.Where's the real value?How are you making someone's life perceptively more beneficial and better for them?
SPEAKER_01: We're going to take a quick break.But when we come back, more from Renee on why you don't need to destroy an old business to create a new one.Stay with us.I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This Lab. Thank you for having me. By creating software like Jira and Confluence to improve companies' workflow, Atlassian is on a mission to make impossibility a reality.And now they're ushering in the next era of teamwork with Atlassian Intelligence.When you think of AI, pizza may not be the first thing that comes to mind. But global pizza chains are actually using AI to scan their pies and make sure they meet their quality standards.From space exploration to making pizza to producing podcasts like the one you're listening to right now, Atlassian thinks there's a lot about AI that companies should be excited about.
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New members can try Audible free for 30 days.Visit audible.com slash built or text built to 500-500.That's audible.com slash built or text built to 500-500. Welcome back to How I Built This Lab.My guest is Renee Mauborgne.In 2017, she put out a follow-up to Blue Ocean Strategy called Blue Ocean Shift, Beyond Competing.Do you think that existing established companies are sort of better placed to adopt a Blue Ocean Strategy with new products?Or do you think that a company starting completely from scratch has a bigger advantage in creating a Blue Ocean Strategy?
SPEAKER_00: So I think they both have distinctive different advantages.The startup will look to the established company and say, oh, they have the resources, they have the reach, they have talent, they have budgets.And then the big company will look to the startup and say, they don't have bureaucracy, they don't have my boss asking for current numbers.So no matter where you are in your life, Somebody looks better and you look at yourself, but somebody is looking at you in the exact opposite way.And the key to life is to look at what you have and how do you make the difference.So we see it as effective both in small companies and in large companies.And I would say for established companies, some of the old ways of thinking and humanness and the fear inside of it, overcoming that in an organization to make that shift is is a little bit harder.And so therefore, in the book, Blue Ocean Shift, we talk about humanness and how do you get people to build the confidence to take the journey with you.
Whereas when you have a startup and they're getting all their close friends with them and they're gung-ho to start something new, that fear is a little bit less obviously, right?So they're ready to go out and conquer all new lands.Whereas the established company is not only thinking about what they can gain, but they're really thinking about what they might lose in the process as well. And so Blue Ocean Shift is all about, you know, what works, what doesn't, how do you bring your people along and what are the key challenges they ask and how do you address those challenges in a way that can create some level of intellectual satisfaction so they're willing at least to take the next step in that journey with you.
SPEAKER_01: You know, we've had in the past founders, and I have a lot of respect for this perspective, who say, I'm building a 100-year brand.I want to build the next GE.I want to build the next Nike, whatever it might be.But we've also had some founders who I think have been brutally honest and have said, look, it's not that important to me to build an enduring brand.If I can create enormous value in five or six years, that's pretty good, too.
SPEAKER_00: I think both are great and you need both.I think the question is what kind of value are they talking about? You know, there's a number of people, a number of startups, they just want to create financial value so they can sell that brand.You know, value innovation, blue ocean strategy is about unlocking a leap in value for the marketplace.But you know what?Horses for courses, right?Everyone doesn't have to follow the same perspective.But what I would say is if I'm looking to build a hundred year brand and I'm that company, or I want to create a brand where I not only create financial success for myself, for my workers, for my life, but I want to create that same brand that also creates tremendous value for society, for my customers.I think no matter which company you're in, you're going to want to start thinking, what is the quantum leap in value I'm able to deliver?
And is it based on a price point that the target mass of buyers that I am looking at So they not only aspire for what I'm offering, but are actually able to realize that aspiration and purchase it.
SPEAKER_01: All right.So let's transition into your latest book because it's about an area and a topic that we hear about a lot.And some companies on this show have been disruptors.You mentioned Liquid Death and Harry's and others. Your new book, your latest book is called Beyond Disruption.And essentially, you're arguing that the disruption approach may not be the best approach.I mean, some of the biggest brands and companies over the last 20 years are disruptors.Netflix, all the fame companies, Netflix, Airbnb, Amazon.I mean, these are companies that had huge disruptive impact on businesses. on those areas.
I mean, Amazon put lots of booksellers out of work, out of business, and Netflix certainly had an impact on movie theaters.But they've also brought incredible value to consumers as well.So tell me a little bit more about the thinking around disruption and, in your view, its problematic ripple effect.
SPEAKER_00: So actually our view is that disruption and what we talk about beyond disruption, we have this idea called non-disruptive creation or non-disruptive innovation when you create a new market beyond the bounds of an industry so there's nothing to displace.Our assertion is not that that is superior and there's something wrong with disruption.We're making the point that the entire field of innovation is really overridingly in the last number of years focused on how do I disrupt? The second I set to disrupt, I take aim at the existing industry with an aim to take it down, whether in full or in part.That's important.And when industries are ineffective, inefficient, induce moral hazard, hurt the environment, those industries, it's beneficial to society to disrupt. But what we started to find out in our research, we saw, yes, some cases of opening a blue ocean are disruptive, like Amazon.It's blue ocean, but it's disruptive.Blue ocean strategy, a lot of our examples are about looking across.So Cirque du Soleil takes some of circus, some of theater, opera, and ballet.
and then creates a market within.But then we saw something that really intrigued us.We saw that there were a number of markets that were created with actually no displacement at all.And we asked our question, is that just a random occurrence or is that the tip of the iceberg or something more?And what we're saying is you can broaden your horizon to not only look at disruption, but look at this non-disruptive opportunities as well.So that is really the aim.It's not to take disruption down, but to open up this other part, the other end of the innovation spectrum and say, let's not forget about this too.
SPEAKER_01: So instead of like inventing the refrigerator and putting like ice sales people out of business, you come up with something entirely new where nobody's doing it anyway.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so you come up with something beyond the bounds of an existing industry.So pet Halloween costumes is such a silly example.It's worth $500 million, right?And probably growing, by the way.And growing.I would say growing, absolutely, given what I see in New York.Yeah. But that's completely outside.Microfinance in the industry, the finance industry, completely outside.Sesame Street was outside.
Kickstarter, outside the finance industry, right?Square, now Block, outside the finance industry.Credit card companies, none of them even attacked it.It just waltzed right in because it didn't go up against Goliath.So Goliath didn't care about it, right?So the question is, for especially startups... You know, they often want to aim to take over an existing industry, but don't think those established players are just going to sit there and say, well, welcome to my sandwich.Please take it.They're going to increasingly fight.
SPEAKER_01: We're going to take a quick break.But when we come back, more from Renee on why entrepreneurs should look to their own experience to figure out which problems they want to solve.Stay with us.I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to How I Built This Lab. You probably know Squarespace as a tool to build custom websites for your business, but it's way more than that.Squarespace is the all-in-one platform for building your brand, engaging your customers, and growing your business online.If you're running a business like the founders on this show, then you'll love some of Squarespace's features. Squarespace has appointment scheduling where clients can easily see your availability, taking the hassle out of coordinating calendars.Squarespace also makes email campaigns super easy with customizable email templates for converting subscribers into loyal customers.And Squarespace has tons of analytics so you know where all your site visits and sales are coming from.
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If they're listening to this and they're thinking, okay, well, what is – where is an area that's beyond disruption?What is an industry or a category right now?What did you guys find?
SPEAKER_00: Actually, they're everywhere, right?They're everywhere. And what we don't realize, I think often, is how many problems that we take for granted that we think is just a part of life, something to put up with, that actually we can set about and start to address it to create a new market that doesn't disrupt anyone else.So like in our school in Seattle. It's international school.Most of the students all come from another country to attend.And one of the students, Cameron Stevens, he applied, he got in.He thought that was one of the hardest things was to get in.But then he could never get a loan because where he was domestically, they don't want to loan to you for foreign studies because they don't know if you're ever going to come back. And then on the other hand, if you get to France, they say, well, wait a minute, where's your local collateral?
Who's going to sign for you in the country?What's your local work history?There was no money there.So he had to delay his arrival.So he said, can we not unlock this market?So he went out and created Prodigy Finance.And he ended up unlocking it not only for MBAs, but for the legal field, the medical field, all these fields.And there was no competitor in that industry.
SPEAKER_01: One of the areas I think that you and your co-author Chan point out is age tech.You may not use the term age tech, but areas that focus on aging populations.I went to the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas earlier this year, and AARP had an enormous… booth, like 30,000 square feet.And yet so much of the market is focused on targeting to people younger than that and not creating products and services for older folks.And they estimate that there is just an enormous opportunity to build products and services for certainly for rapidly aging populations in the United States, but all over the Western world and even in places like Japan and Korea.
SPEAKER_00: Um, so Guy, you make a great point and aging is a big area and you're right.Currently, most of the effort gets directed to that young crowd or younger age range, which actually, interestingly, might not necessarily always have all the funds to purchase so many things.And so there is that overlooked area and it's growing and there's finance.But you know, when I look around and I see like e-sports, multi-billion dollar industry that was created, that's non-disruptive. When you change the lens and the way you think and the questions that you ask, you can often start to see opportunities right in front of you.No one would have believed there could be an opportunity in water.No one would believe in razors, but they are both.So yes, aging is definitely one area.Environment is another area.The migration of people, the way they're moving is another area.
There's a lot of these big, big blocks that you definitely want to look at. But, you know, you can also just lean into your own experiences.So, you know, different ideas of what you could offer, you know, could be environmental consulting is a whole new non-disruptive area as well.Life coaching, non-disruptive, whole new market space as well.
SPEAKER_01: What are the questions that one should ask oneself when considering this?
SPEAKER_00: I think the thing you want to do as an entrepreneur is is really lean into your experience.Just emphatically observing.You notice things that don't seem to work.Instead of just rolling your eyes and telling your friend and going forward, just start thinking, what is it that I'm observing that doesn't seem to be working, take a notebook with you and start writing things down, you know, just a little pad and just like this, this bothered me about this, or this is what I directly experienced.I think a lot of people, when they experience things that don't work, they don't like, they don't, Life is this, this, this, and it's a quick complaint, but they never lean into and ask why and how could I change that?We get a question sometimes from startups or smaller companies like solopreneurs, and they say, gosh, you know, to do all that research, we don't have funding, that kind of time. But you know what I would say is most of the companies that create Blue Oceans, they never outsource their eyes.
The power of directly observing, directly having conversations, interesting.When you tell people to do that, they're often afraid.They don't know how to ask the question.And it doesn't mean every person is going to. give you insight.But what people are really good at is telling your pain points.And so what I want to say to startups and everyone, you know, they say, how did Steve Jobs have such good insight?Or how did Scott Cook create Quicken?You know, well, he saw all the frustration of using accounting online, and no one even knew accounting.These real entrepreneurs get gut instinct because they're in the market, they're doers, they're observing, they're using.
But too many people have outsourced their eyes And they really shouldn't.Never outsource your eyes.Go and observe, meet, talk and see and use your products and services.
SPEAKER_01: Rene, how, I mean, if the last 20 years or more, but let's say the last 20 years has been the story of disruptive creation, how do you see non-disruptive creation playing out over the coming decades?
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I can't predict the future, and I want to believe the past decade was not only disruption, but also largely creating blue oceans that weren't disruptive.Of course, technology is a means to an end.It's not an end itself.And the question is, what are we going to use that technology to create? As long as we're using technology, AI, and we direct it at productivity, which is important, and while there may be new jobs created in the medium to long term, usually disruption in the short to medium term starts to let even more people go.So there's a lot of anxiety in companies today.What does this mean for me?I keep hearing about AI.I like it, but I'm afraid whether they voice it or not, it's almost in every industry.And so then the question becomes, though,
How can we apply some of these new technologies to non-disruptive opportunities so that we can start to leverage them to not only create productivity, but as a society we need to be creating new jobs as well.I don't have the answer to that future, but I do think for our societies to have a good balance between economic growth and people, I think it's a question worth asking.
SPEAKER_01: Renee, thank you so much.
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
SPEAKER_01: This episode was produced by Kerry Thompson with editing by John Isabella and research help from Sam Paulson.Our music was composed by Ramtin Arablui.Our audio engineer was Neil Rauch.Our production team at How I Built This includes Alex Chung, Carla Estevez, Casey Herman, Chris Messini, Catherine Seifer, JC Howard, Malia Agudelo, and Neva Grant.I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This Lab. If you like how I built this, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music.Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com survey. Amica knows that your home, auto, and life insurance are more than just a policy.It isn't just home insurance.
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