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SPEAKER_05: I was doing what everybody does in San Diego that works south. You're sitting on the highway, a freeway, driving 10 to 15 miles an hour in stop and go traffic. And I was driving a Ford F-150 pickup truck. I was one of those people. I think it's a best-selling car in the US.
SPEAKER_06: It is.
SPEAKER_05: It's amazing how that is, but I used the bed of it twice before I sold it. So I'm thinking to myself, I was also a student pilot at the time, so I had an understanding of aerodynamics. And I was just thinking about aerodynamics and planes and looking up at the planes and saying, oh, the planes are flying by. I'm staying still. And then look at these vehicles. They're all boxy, even my own. It's just this big boxy thing. And so I started doing little things like I would fold my mirrors back or let down my tailgate and try and see on a long trip if I could get more gas mileage. And then I just did some reading and I said, wait a minute, these cars, 60% of the energy is just pushing the air out of the way. They're like boxes or pieces of furniture pushing air out of the way. They're not made for aerodynamics. So basically you were just a commuter driving a Ford F-150.
SPEAKER_06: And also you happen to be an engineer and you were just asking yourself, why are cars designed in such a way as to just increase the drag? Because essentially it means that a Ford F-150 probably gets like 17, 20 miles per gallon, if that.
SPEAKER_05: I mean, I'm sure it's better now. Yeah, at the time I think it was around 14 miles per gallon and I could squeeze out 17 if I did all these tips and tricks. But you could see once you asked a question and see it in the following perspective of basically a continuous lineage from sort of Roman carts to horse and carriages to modern cars, you can see that yeah, four corners, a wheel under each corner and just various manifestations of that. So it's understandable how none of that would really change. It would just kind of slightly evolve. And I thought what was needed to be the most efficient was a rethink of the platform to have the least weight and the least aerodynamic drag possible.
SPEAKER_06: And just to be clear, you were just doing this as a tinkerer. You had a full-time job at a biotech company, but you started to just like draw designs on paper for fun?
SPEAKER_05: Yes. You know, my wife and I at the time, we didn't have any children. And so this meant that Saturday mornings I could lay out my drawings on the living room floor. I could drink coffee all day. I could work in the garage without distraction. And it was just a hobby. And at some point I thought, you know, I'm probably not the only person that wants this. I should think about how would I make this and sell it, you know, I'd have to have a business plan. So I worked with someone. I've never written a business plan. I was an entrepreneur. So I kind of started from there.
SPEAKER_06: And so I guess around the same time, you in San Diego, you meet this guy, Chris Anthony. And Chris had like a small business where he made boats?
SPEAKER_05: Yes. He had a company called Epic Boats. And he was using these, you know, computational fluid dynamic tools to make the boat have more drag so to make a bigger wake so you could have more fun. So he's working on the opposite thing. Yes. He wanted the boat to have more drag. That's right.
SPEAKER_06: You're working on something with less drag. But this was for wakeboarding, basically a specific type of boat designed to make wakeboarding more fun or more exciting, I guess?
SPEAKER_05: Yes. Apparently it is a thing. I didn't even know it was a thing. You know, I don't get out much. It's like water skiing on like a boogie board.
SPEAKER_06: Wakeboard is going to kill me for saying that, but it's sort of like that.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah. It's kind of like that. You have this wake in perpetuity, you know, that you can sort of surf behind or even do wakeboard tricks and stuff behind. And in Mission Bay here in San Diego, it's pretty popular. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06: Yeah. You hold onto a rope or a, yeah, like when you're water skiing. That's right. So he was working on that. When you meet him, he's somebody you feel like, I should get to know this guy because he knows how to design a boat. So maybe I can talk to him about designing my vehicle, whatever it's going to be. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05: You know, we both are, you know, I had my own shop full of tools, you know, welder and mini lathe. And, you know, I of course make circuits and things like that as well. So I was pretty handy myself. He was also handy with hand tools. And he could, you know, Chris is a bit of a polymath, you know, so he has many different talents. He's actually a finance guy by training, but I could see, you know, sort of by inspection, I could see the work that he's done. He's able to make things that he can visualize, which is really unique trait. And as we were talking about some of these problems and how we might, you know, build the structure, how it might need to be shaped to carry the load, you know, he could easily visualize, whereas maybe I would need to do more math to convince myself of something.
SPEAKER_06: All right. So you start talking to Chris and what did you have in mind at that time in terms of what you wanted to do? You knew you wanted a vehicle that was more energy efficient. And were you thinking like a traditional car? What kind of designs were you thinking about? Well, once I, you know, once I saw what was possible, we said, well, let's ask, let's
SPEAKER_05: see what the, you know, like in engineering, oftentimes you'll set a term to zero. You won't know the answer, but you'll set a term in an equation to zero or infinity to kind of see what the equation does. And so I, you know, just sort of asked myself rhetorically, what is a drag shape with, you know, a frontal area of X and X is just basically two people sitting side by side, but with the coefficient of zero, what does that look like? And what does that shape look like? And once we determined what that was through our research, you know, we, we believe that with the diesel engine at the time, we could achieve over 300 miles per gallon. And so we just, we built the company around that and we started fundraising and got our first investor and, you know, it was off to the races.
SPEAKER_06: So, all right, let's kind of, I'm just curious, I mean, about the decision you made to leave your job and to start a car company. I mean, it was kind of, kind of, let's just be honest, be blunt, kind of, kind of nuts, right? I mean, when you went to your partner, I think your wife at the time, did you say, hey, I want to start a car company. And I mean, you had a job and you, and this is kind of an ambitious thing to, I mean, it's not like just starting a, you know, a farmer's market, Stan. I mean, it requires a lot of capital and a lot of, you know, there's a lot, there's a long road to make that work. What was her reaction? I mean, it's very interesting.
SPEAKER_05: It's a, it's an interesting question and also situation for the reasons you just said. I had every reason to stay there. I would, I would have been retired by now from the money I would have made on my stock options had I kept them and not liquidated to start Aptera. My friends at Illumina remind me of that often. But I remember once, once I saw that the only way I could do this was, was full-time, raise money full-time and build the company. And I went home and I told my wife, I said, honey, you know, I'm, she was like six months pregnant, by the way, our first child. And I said, I want to quit Illumina and, and start a car company. And you know how some, you know, every woman, I think, that goes through pregnancy, they have different experiences. Some have, you know, bouts of sickness or, you know, immense joy. My wife was a ladder. She was just, whatever hormones were in her body because of that made her extremely happy about everything. And so I remember I told her that I'm quitting to start a car company. She's kind of smiled and said, okay, hon, that's, that's great. I was like, what? Like she even hear what I just said, you know, I don't, maybe she didn't understand. She's also an electrical engineer. And so she had an appreciation of, you know, the challenge ahead.
SPEAKER_06: So you and Chris decide to start this car company called Aptera, which means wingless flight. It's like right in Greek.
SPEAKER_05: It's more, more simply wingless, like a pterodactyl. If you say Aptera, it's just without wing.
SPEAKER_06: Without wings. Okay. And, and you set out to design and I'll try to try to describe it, but maybe you can do a better job, but basically a three wheeled vehicle, like two wheels in the front, one in the back. And it's like, it looks like the fuselage of a small airplane, right? It's like a, like a motorcycle car hybrid kind of thing. Yes.
SPEAKER_05: You know, since we're on, on, on voice and radio, uh, or audio, or rather I'll, I'll describe it. If you can imagine like, uh, the shape of a shark, uh, maybe flattened out in the middle, but without the fins and then with two wheels in the front of where the mouth is and a wheel in the sort of the back where the tail is, that's, that's kind of what Aptera looks like. And there's, there's actually a lot of biomimicry there because you know, sharks, other, other fish that swim near the bottom of the, uh, of the ocean or lake in what they call ground effect where you're not in the free stream, but you're down very low to the surface. Those creatures also camber their back like Aptera is cambered and, uh, and that radically reduces the, the, uh, the drag coefficient. So it's, it's a, a fundamental discovery that, uh, I made early on in the process. Like this is, this is not the free stream that is, this doesn't need to be a symmetrical sort of an airfoil or a teardrop. This needs to look different, uh, because it is in what they call ground effect.
SPEAKER_06: So how did, how did you finance building that prototype? Because you had a prototype within two years. I mean, by 2007 you had the first vehicle. How did you, uh, yeah, how did you finance it? Who supported you? Well, our first investor was a business incubator in Pasadena called IdeaLab.
SPEAKER_05: And they were instrumental in getting us off the ground and connecting us with, uh, with ongoing funding. And we actually had the first prototype, I think within about six months of funding. And it was really just myself, Chris, and a young engineer. And we were working, you know, 20 hour days. We were doing all the work ourself, you know, welding, wiring, and everything else. And it was just lots and lots of long hours. Um, and, uh, you know, that was just the only way to do it. Uh, and then the sort of production intent version, the Mark one, we launched, um, September 27th, I think it was 2007. And on the day that we said we would, we around January or so, we, uh, we told, you know, our board and everyone else, this is when we're going to launch it. And it launched, it launched that day.
SPEAKER_06: We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back more from Steve about Aptera's early rise and fall and how he and his co-founder are making another run at solar powered cars today. Stay with us. You're listening to how I built this lab.
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SPEAKER_06: Welcome back to how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. My guest is Steve Fambro, founder and CEO of the solar car company Aptera. So it's 2006 way before electric vehicles were mainstream. In fact, there was barely an electric vehicle industry at the time. There were no charging standards, nothing built for the industry. But Steve was certain he was on the right track.
SPEAKER_05: We believe that electric was the future. It made all the sense in the world. We don't need to be burning, you know, hydrocarbons, even if they're very efficient, there's better ways to power a vehicle and that was with electricity. I mean, essentially, you had this electric vehicle, this prototype, and I think you unveiled
SPEAKER_06: it to the public at TED conference in 2007. And that really got people excited. You got a lot of interest and you had a lot of people coming to you to make investments and people wanted this car. People were really excited about it.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, that was a really big, that conference was a really pivotal event for us because it put us on the map. It got a lot of press. It introduced us to lots of investors and we went on to raise probably another $40 million or so at the time before we left the company. So, all right, so this prototype comes out.
SPEAKER_06: And by the way, it looks like what the car looks like today. It looks very similar. But there is a lot that happened between then and now. And so let's talk about some of what happened. I mean, there was a lot of interest. I mean, eventually, within a year or so, you had about 4,000 people put down deposits to buy one of these really cool vehicles, two-seaters, but with a lot of trunk space. And meantime, you, I guess you and Chris, your co-founder, decided to find a CEO, like a professional CEO who could really kind of take the company to the next level, but for a variety of reasons that would turn out to be maybe not the right decision. Well, it was a tough time for any startup at that time.
SPEAKER_05: I remember a lot of the VCs we were talking to, they were, at that time, it was the economic downturn and it was gloom and doom. I still remember Bill Gurley, a prominent Silicon Valley VC at the time. Fested in Uber and many others, yep.
SPEAKER_05: I remember he had a single slide on a PowerPoint with sort of a piece of ham where all the ham was gone and a knife on a bone saying, cut to the bone. That was his advice to all of the startups at the time. And so we recognized that the team, the professional team that we hired, they were working with the Department of Energy to get a loan and to bring in a four-wheel vehicle. And with the cutting to the bone mentality, we thought maybe the company would be in better hands if we left it to the professionals and we would go off and start another company. And that's what Chris did and that's what I did.
SPEAKER_06: And basically what happened, just to summarize it, I mean, the company sought out loans from the government, the Department of Energy, which did give big loans to Tesla and to Fisker and even to Ford. But initially, because you were a three-wheeled vehicle, you weren't eligible for one of these loans that were designed to help electric car companies get off the ground. And I guess the team that you sort of hired to run the company decided that maybe they should move towards a four-wheel vehicle, like a traditional sedan. And that's where they kind of shifted all their energy towards.
SPEAKER_05: Yes, that's exactly right. And so they had used a lot of the same concepts and ideas to design a four-wheel vehicle. I think that's what they were trying to get through the DOE at the time.
SPEAKER_06: So essentially by 2009, you and Chris were on the way out. You had started this company in 2005, but about four years later, there's a professional team, many of whom had come from the automotive industry, running Aptera, and I guess you felt like there wasn't much for you to do at that point in the company?
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I mean, that's basically it. We wanted to make sure if we're there getting a salary, that we're adding value and all moving in the same direction. And I think the direction that the team and the board wanted to move was the four-wheel and the DOE loan. And so we felt that we would probably add more value to something new and something different. The professional team was in place and sort of left in charge. All right, so you guys leave.
SPEAKER_06: Meantime, Aptera does manage to secure a loan, a commitment, I should say, but they had to – I guess there was a condition. They had to raise money from the private markets. But for a variety of reasons, that fell through. And by 2011, the company you founded, Aptera, it shut down. It basically liquidated and refunded the depositors' money who wanted people who deposited on the cars and then paid investors back what they could pay them back.
SPEAKER_05: That's right.
SPEAKER_06: I mean, how did you feel? I mean, so this sort of dream that you guys had, that was it. I mean, how did you feel at that time?
SPEAKER_05: You know, at the time, I tried to channel all of that grief into positive energy. So the day I left Aptera originally, I was maybe two or three weeks before I had my first signed term sheet for my new company. I just tried to put all of that thought and grief into energy, into momentum, into something different. But it's analogous to the loss of someone that you love, and you never really get over
SPEAKER_06: it. In the meantime, you were working on this other company, this vertical farming company that would allow people, I guess, to raise their own vegetables inside their homes? Well, it was more industrial food production, but indoors.
SPEAKER_05: But it was the idea of growing food is densely packed in three dimensions as you could, and then only expanding it out at the time of harvest so that you could, in the smallest amount of space with the least amount of energy and least amount of water, raise the highest amount of biomass per unit area, per unit time. Wow.
SPEAKER_06: Meantime, Aptera is just done. The assets were auctioned off. Apparently there was a Chinese company that at some point tried to spin out another independent company called Aptera US that would make a gas version of the car. It never really took off. But it seems like this Chinese company that essentially bought the assets never really filed to take over Aptera's IP.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, they didn't really do much of anything with it. And I think even the company that, one of the people that bought the assets of the first auction, they ended up with a bunch of the older vehicles sitting in a warehouse up somewhere in Northern California that we've, Chris and I have tried to locate just for sentimental reasons. We'd love to have them as part of our heritage, just on display or something. But yeah, they were sort of cast to the four corners of the earth and the IP, the products and tools and nothing ever really happened with it. And it just kind of sat as an idea in my mind and Chris's mind and Jason and a few others, for basically until we were able to bring it back to life.
SPEAKER_06: So tell me how that happened. I mean, 2019, you and Chris joined forces to relaunch Aptera. Tell me about the conversations you were having to do that because I mean, you started in 2005, it essentially folds in 2011 and probably most of the investors lost money, right? So tell me how, I mean, how did you guys even start talking like, take me in the conversation, like let's start this again. Let's go back to this thing.
SPEAKER_05: Actually, I think it might have started with our lobbyist, Dwayne Gibson, who was in town and just wanted to reconnect.
SPEAKER_06: And just to be clear, you had a lobbyist that you hired to work in Washington, DC to focus on loans and subsidies that the government was offering to electric car makers.
SPEAKER_05: Correct. To help us navigate the waters. When you're connected with someone like that, it's not just about sort of lobbying for loans and programs. It's also making sure you have a seat at the table with different regulatory bodies or that you have the right legal oversight, protection and certain regulatory affairs. And so we were just sort of kicking around the idea saying, look, who is it? There's just Tesla really, there's no one else. And why is that? And everything is just an electrified car. It's not really designed, it doesn't appear to be designed from scratch as an electric vehicle. And Chris, of course, owning this battery company and us talking about it, the numbers, and said, well, with the new technology, how many batteries could we fit in a nap tire anyway? And so we just started doing some back of the napkin calculations. With these new batteries, we could fit 100 kilowatt hours in that vehicle and 100 watt hours per mile, which is what we achieved with the old Aptera, about 95 watt hours per mile, which is extremely efficient. That would be a thousand miles. And so that kind of just, it made our eyes open because we knew from some little bit of research that we'd done that range wasn't the most, but it was a very important factor in deciding to buy an electric car or which electric car people wanted to buy. And if you could control the range factor, then you could really control a significant part of the market. And that was our premise is how do we blow up range? How do we own range? And we do that with efficiency. And that was really the genesis of the restart.
SPEAKER_06: We're going to take another quick break, but coming up in just a moment, more from Steve about his inspiration to go solar. Stay with us. And you're listening to how I built this lab.
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SPEAKER_06: Welcome back to How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz and my guest is Steve Fanbro, the founder of Aptera Motors. So basically you decide let's make still make an electric vehicle, but it'll have solar panels all over it as an additional source of power. Correct.
SPEAKER_05: Correct. You plug it in like normal if you want, but most people won't ever have to because here in Southern California, you'll probably get about 11,000 miles a year of free charge.
SPEAKER_06: Just by sitting it, just by leaving it outside, it's just going to get powered by the sun. And that'll give it about up to 40 miles of range just from solar energy. That's right. And that's because this is a small and efficient vehicle. Because I mean, I imagine that the technology around solar just isn't quite there yet to power a one ton vehicle.
SPEAKER_05: You're right. You're looking at 25% or so conversion efficiency once it's all sort of encapsulated in a matrix. And if you try to do this to any large electric vehicle, it's barely going to budge the needle. So the advantage of designing for efficiency and being a brand that's really grounded in efficiency above all else is that these kinds of things become possible and we can use a smaller battery pack. That's going to mean less cells and less cost for the battery and hopefully a lower cost to the consumer, more range, less charge time, et cetera, et cetera. That's the direction that we push stuff. It's to push to more and more efficient using less and less energy along the way. How do we keep reducing the amount of energy that the vehicle uses while expanding the amount that we're producing on the solar panels?
SPEAKER_06: So let's talk about the car. So obviously now the landscape is very different from 2005 when you started. It's a different environment. You're seeing a lot of Model 3 Teslas all over the United States now. You're seeing a lot of the Kias, sort of a lower price point. You're seeing obviously Chevy and then the Ford F-150. Lightning is out there. You've got the Rivians. You've got a lot of companies, Hyundai are in the game now, in the electric car game. Who is this for? Who is this car going to appeal to? It's a different kind of vehicle. It's a two-seater. What part of the market are you targeting?
SPEAKER_05: Well, Aptera is a brand and the Aptera is a product are going to appeal to people who want a kind of freedom of mobility, a freedom to go and to move without being encumbered either by a charge cord or having to pay for electricity. That freedom from the old way of doing things is really what Aptera is about. There's lots of electric car choices out there and lots of electrified cars, cars that are just steel boxes with electric components shoved in them. Those are all great products for different customers and they'll sell lots of them, but that's not what we're about. We're about solar mobility and we're about giving that freedom to people. The first vehicle that you see, of course, a two-seater, that's a tip of the sword, but there's a product portfolio and vehicles that are coming behind that that are going to embody the same ethos and double down and triple down on efficiency and solar. So expect to see a family of vehicles from Aptera where this is a first, but all of them are going to have the same promise of the kind of solar freedom and solar mobility.
SPEAKER_06: So I think the majority of daily commutes are under like 40 miles. So in theory, if you're just driving a couple of miles to the office, maybe the grocery store and home, solar power alone could power the car. But what about parts of the country where it's not as sunny or on days when it's not sunny at all, does the car store the solar power, the solar energy?
SPEAKER_05: Yes, it'll still charge. It might only charge 10 miles worth or 12 miles worth or something like that if it's overcast or in a northern latitude. And so the way to think about it is, are you plugging it in once every six months? Are you plugging it in once every month? That's how it's going to impact people. It's whether you get 30 miles a day, 40 miles a day, the launch vehicle is going to get around 400 miles range. It's really just going to affect, are you plugging it in monthly or maybe every two weeks or something like that? So that's how that difference in daily solar charge is going to manifest.
SPEAKER_06: You also are, I mean, the body of the car is different. It's a carbon fiber body. And so it kind of looks like, you know, there are these like Velo racing bicycles, right? It's almost like this aerodynamic, like, I mean, teardrop isn't the right description, as you said earlier, but it's sort of like that. Is that also, I mean, does that also enable it to, does that enable the range? I mean, the weight of the material, for example? Well, it is a combination of both.
SPEAKER_05: The drag, the low drag, which, you know, the shape, the very curvaceous, you know, shark-like shape, and the lightweight is both of those are what really enabled the efficiency. And the lightweight comes from composites. Now the challenge with composites and the challenge with how we were doing them before and how Chris was doing with his boat company, it's very labor intensive and it doesn't really scale. And so what we wanted was a process that we could stamp them out, like you would stamp out steel pieces and produce them as fast as you would a steel car. And that's what took us to Italy to CPC. Our partners have devised a very high throughput process, which to my knowledge, no one else in the world has this capacity and this ability to produce parts every, you know, four to six minutes, just like you were producing a steel part. So it's a strong composite thermoplastic, but without any of the hand labor and the waste and the cutting and the materials and all that other stuff. It just produces a nice part that comes right out of the mold, ready to be vinyl wrapped or just used without having to paint. It's a radically different way of producing the vehicle. There's only six structural pieces. And so being able to build a vehicle from six pieces, it's just an order of magnitude simplification of tooling fixtures, etc.
SPEAKER_06: So, the idea is to get these, I know that you can now order, you can reserve one, right? I mean, you have, I guess, up to about 40,000 people have reserved one. And the idea is to start delivering them when? It's about 43,000, Evers Reservations, about $1.6 billion worth of vehicles.
SPEAKER_05: We believe, we're pretty confident after about nine months of closing our Series B funding, somewhere between nine and 12 months, we could deliver the first vehicle. We still have lots of big things to do. We have to go through our airbag certification program. For example, we have to go through the ABS, ABS braking system certification. For those that may not know, you can't just order that part and install it on the vehicle. It has to go through the manufacturer's own sort of certification process. So there's some things like that that we still have to do. And that's why we're fundraising the Series B.
SPEAKER_06: And what about the sort of the safety of the vehicle? I mean, it is, it's an enclosed vehicle, but it is three wheels and it's a two seater. And so, I mean, obviously, a motorcycle is not the safest mode of transportation, but this has airbags, presumably. I mean, it has all the safety features of a car.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, you can think of it just as a modern car in terms of safety features. The rollover, crush strength, airbags, seat belts, interlocks, all that kind of stuff, same stuff we have, designed to the same standards. So not required for a motorcycle, but we're just trying to adhere to as many of the regular automotive standards as we can.
SPEAKER_06: And the price point starts at about $26,000, I think. Yeah, high 20s for the 250 mile version, which is the smallest battery pack, 25 kilowatt
SPEAKER_05: hour and goes up to around 50,000, I think, for the highest configuration, a thousand mile range, three wheel drive. So the options are basically battery pack size and you want two wheel drive or three wheel drive. Those are the big cost drivers. I mean, what do you like in terms of solar technology?
SPEAKER_06: There are some companies, including Fisker, which is coming back, it was sort of went away for a while and it's coming back. They're also experimenting or will be experimenting with solar, I guess you call it a solar hybrid, like solar electric hybrid, maybe. What kinds of leaps in solar technology have to happen for a car to be fully solar powered?
SPEAKER_05: If the solar is going to be meaningful on the vehicle, if it's going to add a meaningful range, the vehicle is going to have to be aerodynamic, right? It can't just be a boxy flat sided vehicle. So if it's going to be aerodynamic, it means you're going to have curves in 3D. So fundamentally you're going to be making 3D curve panels. So that's number one. How do you bend those cells without cracking or micro cracking, which will lead to a crack? And how do you do it repeatedly and consistently, and then also make that panel very lightweight for an automotive application and then also make it affordable and then also make it able to stand up to hail and rocks. That's what's required to make it practical. And that's what we've been doing for the past two years.
SPEAKER_06: So I mean, looking ahead, five years from now, and there's lots of Aptaras driving down the freeway, up and down the freeways, at least in California and maybe beyond, from what you know and from your perspective, I mean, are we looking at a future sooner than we may think of electric vehicles going a thousand plus miles on one charge?
SPEAKER_05: I definitely think so. I think Aptaras is going to show the way because the way technology is right now, there's no other way it's achievable without this extreme obsession with efficiency. There's no other platform out there that can do it. So the vehicles, the race for the high range, which I think is going to be the new era that you see unfolding in EVs when you look at where the innovations are, how do we get more range? I think you're going to see some common trends of aerodynamic shapes, lighter weight materials, and hopefully Aptara can maintain its lead in that position.
SPEAKER_06: I have to assume you're going to be one of the first owners of the Aptara. When will you be driving one around? Permanently, I would say early next year.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I don't want to hand-built. I mean, I drive the prototypes here all the time, but I want to drive a production version. So I have to fight probably Chris and a couple of other investors for the very first one, but we'll see. Maybe we'll spin the bottle or something, see who gets the first one. But I think early next year I'll be driving one of the first ones. Sounds like there's going to be a little bit of a fight.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I've learned not to try and arm wrestle him or fight him. I usually end up the doctor's office if I do that.
SPEAKER_06: By the way, I noticed that it has rear view mirrors, which presumably affects drag. I think that's a regulatory thing in the US, right? Because you can replace rear view mirrors with cameras, but the regulatory agencies still require a rear view mirror.
SPEAKER_05: It's vestigial. It's like saying, you must have a clip for your whip on your buggy. You can't have your whip laying around on the buggy. There's no whip, there's no buggy. We don't need that. But it is a vestigial requirement. So we have the least amount of size required by law.
SPEAKER_06: Got it. And the doors open electronically or what? Because they open like wings. Yeah, there's electric and mechanical release.
SPEAKER_05: So the most common way to do it is with a button that's right there on the armrest, but then there's sort of a backup mechanical release underneath it, which many EVs have that strategy now.
SPEAKER_06: And you can only fit two people. You can't fit more than that. But it has a lot of cargo space. Yeah, a thousand liters of cargo space, which is like, is a comparison.
SPEAKER_05: Any modern EV that's out there, you fold down the back seats and you get a thousand liters of space or more in the Aptera. So it's, I mean, you can put surfboards in it, you can put a ladder in there, tools. You can put, you know, if you're like a Macedonian army reenactment person, you can put all your spears and stuff in there as well. I mean, it's an amazing amount of space. Wow.
SPEAKER_06: That's a huge market. Apparently a lot of Macedonian reenactors out there. So that's a, that's a huge, huge market market. Yeah. We're going to be big in that market.
SPEAKER_06: That's Steve Fanbro co-founder and co CEO of Aptera Motors. Thanks so much for listening to how I built this lab.
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SPEAKER_06: This episode was produced by Kerry Thompson with editing by John Isabella. Our music was composed by Ramtin Arablui. Our audio engineer was Neil Rauch. Our production team at How I Built This includes Alex Chung, Chris Mussini, Elaine Coates, Casey Herman, JC Howard, Carla Estevez, Liz Metzger, and Sam Paulson. Eva Grant is our supervising editor, I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to How I Built This. Hey, Prime members, you can listen to How I Built This early and ad free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today or you can listen early and ad free with Wondery Plus and Apple podcasts. If you want to show your support for our show, be sure to get your How I Built This merch and gear at wonderyshop.com. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey. Hey, it's Guy here. And while we're on a little break, I want to tell you about a recent episode of How I Built This Lab that we released. It's about the company TerraCycle and how they're working to make recycling and waste reduction more accessible. The founder, Tom Zaki, originally launched TerraCycle as a worm poop fertilizer company. He did this from his college dorm room. Basically, the worms would eat trash and then they would turn it into plant fertilizer. Now, his company has since pivoted from that and they recycle everything from shampoo bottles and makeup containers to snack wrappers and even cigarette butts. And in the episode, you'll hear Tom talk about his new initiative to develop packaging that is actually reusable in hopes of phasing out single-use products entirely and making recycling and TerraCycle obsolete. You can hear this episode by following How I Built This and scrolling back a little bit to the episode, Making Garbage Useful with Tom Zaki of TerraCycle, or by searching TerraCycle, that's T-E-R-R-A-C-Y-C-L-E, wherever you listen to podcasts.
