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SPEAKER_06: Football season is back, and Whole Foods Market has everything you need to host a successful watch party or tailgate on game day. In the meat department, there's animal welfare certified marinated chicken wings, organic chicken sausages, hot dogs, and more. And you can grab football-ready sides in a flash. Everything from mac and cheese and potato salad to sushi. I love picking up Whole Foods guacamole, which if you haven't eaten it, you're about to get your mind blown because it's actually amazing. By the way, catering from Whole Foods makes tailgates a breeze. Explore the menu at shop.wfm.com. Save 20% from September 20th through October 17th with promo code FALLCATERING, all one word. Don't sleep on the build-your-own-taco bar. It's always a winner. Terms apply. Elevate game day at Whole Foods Market. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. If you're a small business owner, it isn't just your business. It's your life. Whatever your business might be, you want someone who understands. And that's where State Farm Small Business Insurance comes in. State Farm agents are small business owners too, and know what it takes to help you personalize your policies for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor? State Farm is there. Talk to your local agent today. Hey, it's Guy here. So you know, we ask a lot of our guests on How I Built This about the moment. When did they have an idea for something big, or when did they know they have the talent to rise to the top? Well, recently I talked about this with Bjork, who told me about the time when she first understood that she had a unique singing voice. She was a kid in a pretty remote town in Iceland, and she'd sing at the top of her lungs, walking in the woods on her way to school. But it took her a long time to convince herself that it was a voice to be shared with the world. Check out my conversation with Bjork on my other podcast. It's called The Great Creators. Just search for The Great Creators with Guy Raz wherever you listen to podcasts, or go to thegreatcreators.com. Okay, on to the show. And this week, we're rerunning an interview from 2020 with Holly Thagard, who set out to create a sunscreen that people would actually want to slather on their faces every day. Hope you enjoy.
SPEAKER_04: I had created these sunscreen swipes, and apparently the swipes were a huge hit. So I would go around to stores during that period, and the swipes were always gone. They were just wiped off the shelf. But the problem was I knew that my sales couldn't be great if there were no products on the shelf. And so I'd go into as many stores as I could with swipes in my bag and literally stock the shelves. Like I'd give them product, which is crazy, right?
SPEAKER_06: Welcome to How I Built This, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements they built. I'm Guy Raz, and on the show today, how Holly Thagard decided that sunscreen should be used every day and at every time of year. And how that idea grew into the multi-million dollar brand Supergoop. There's a concept in business known as product-market fit. It was popularized by the well-known Silicon Valley venture capitalist Andy Ratcliffe. And the idea is pretty simple. You have a product. If there's a market fit, people will buy it. If not, they won't. Sometimes there's no product-market fit because the product solves a problem that no one really has. For example, Cheetos lip balm. Did someone really think there was a market for Cheetos lip balm? At other times, there's no product-market fit because the idea comes too early, before people are ready. Like Pets.com, which fizzled out in 2001. But a decade later, Chewy.com, which basically does the same thing, took off and is now valued at more than $10 billion. But not having an exact product-market fit doesn't necessarily mean your idea is doomed to fail. Think about Airbnb or Lyft. There was no market for those ideas at first. It took those companies a lot of time to convince consumers that it wasn't weird sleeping at a random person's house or hopping in their car. Airbnb and Lyft had to create the market for what they offered. But it's kind of the same story for Holly Thagard and Supergoop. The vast majority of people think of sunscreen as something you use at the beach, or you slather on small children before they go outdoors. But Holly wanted to convince people that they needed to use sunscreen every day, all the time, year-round, like getting dressed or brushing your teeth or taking vitamins. Her whole plan was to work with educators to create awareness around skin cancer, something thousands of people are diagnosed with in the U.S. alone every single day. And Holly's business model would be based on selling giant sunscreen dispensers, kind of like those hand sanitizer dispensers, to schools. But as you will hear, that whole business model was doomed from the start, and not just because there was no product-market fit. So Holly had to pivot and completely rethink her idea of how to get people to use sunscreen every day, and in the process, had to basically build out a market for her product. And although her mission is still very much a work in progress, Supergoop is now one of the top-rated sunscreens on the market. The company did about $40 million in revenue in 2018 and became profitable last year. And as I often say when introducing the story of a founder, nothing about Holly's early life in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, hinted at the career she would ultimately choose, except for one important thing. Both her parents were entrepreneurs. Her dad ran a machinery business, and her mom was an accomplished portrait painter.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, she and my maternal grandmother, even her mother, they were both amazing artists. And I watched my mother's career go from, when I was younger, she created a custom handbag brand that Neiman Marcus could not keep in stock, all hand-painted and monogrammed. And she went on ultimately to paint portraits, senators and judges. And she's very talented. I feel fortunate to have her as a mother because I have portraits now of my children, and I didn't have to pay for them. Yeah, that's so cool.
SPEAKER_06: And so I guess as a kid, as a little girl, you took up the harp. Is that right? How old were you?
SPEAKER_04: I did, you know, but I'd even back up a little bit to that as I started on the piano. And I played the piano for several years. Gosh, I started in, I think, second grade. And by the time I got to fifth grade, I saw this bright, shiny gold harp that I didn't see anywhere other than my grandmother's living room. And I thought, gosh, if I could switch gears and play the harp, it would, you know, there's not a lot of competition.
SPEAKER_06: You could be the best harpist because there are right there probably weren't that many around you.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and everything sounds beautiful on the harp when even when you mess up, it's pretty. Yeah, by the way, as a you know, a fifth grader or sixth grader, how did you carry the harp?
SPEAKER_06: Is it on wheels?
SPEAKER_04: It has a dolly and you learn how to handle it. It's not so much that it's heavy as that it has so many moving parts, but you were not
SPEAKER_06: bringing the harp onto the school bus.
SPEAKER_04: No, no. And in fact, I played at home. And then for the talent shows, of course, I'd show up but it wasn't really until high school that I began getting really excited about the harp because I saw it more as a business and the the idea of creating a business around Holly the harpist was exciting to me. Wow, wait, so you as you sort of got better at the harp, you thought, hey, this could
SPEAKER_06: be my business like you were thinking this in high school.
SPEAKER_04: I was. I was actually already working on the weekends and every Sunday for brunch at the local country club like in the dining room, you would just be in the corner playing the harp.
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, be Holly the harpist be Holly the harpist and I could kind of set my price because there
SPEAKER_04: wasn't a lot of competition. So I really started out playing for like $100 an hour, which was a lot when you're in ninth grade. Wow.
SPEAKER_06: So you are Holly the harpist playing harp for money, which is awesome. And and you decided to go to school at Louisiana State University, which is not that too far from from where you live, I guess. And what did you did you study music there?
SPEAKER_04: Yes, I did. So I was never really that great of a student. I spent those first two years in college studying music. I totally did not fit in with anyone in the music school. I realized how serious the musicians were in college. And I was more interested in doing what I was already doing, which was performing and playing. And I was at the time, you know, still getting jobs in in New Orleans at the Museum of Art. And I played a little backup for Aretha Franklin when she came through and what a what?
SPEAKER_06: Wow. What did you what did you play with Aretha Franklin? Amazing Grace. Wow. I mean, if there ever is a song to play with Aretha Franklin, you run the harp man. That's amazing.
SPEAKER_04: And look, that makes me sound like I was this great harpist. But like I was so winging it. I had no idea but I knew I couldn't say no. And I had no business. I've literally had to break down every measure. And I was that reading music type student, you know, but you keep in mind, like I enjoyed the business of Holly the harpist way more than I enjoyed playing the harp. So if you I mean, if you didn't enjoy playing the harp that much, what like, what did you
SPEAKER_06: decide that you want to do professionally?
SPEAKER_04: So I had also grown up because I think I'm such an organized person. And I love pencils and supplies and things I grew up thinking that being a teacher would be really fun. And I often even when my little brother would get home from school, and you know, keep in mind, he was seven years younger than I was, I would sort of start a new session in his room and get worksheets for him and pass out my sheets and, and so I thought, well, maybe I should maybe I should be a teacher.
SPEAKER_06: And I guess that's what you did. I read that you, you went on to to study education and got your first teaching job, I think in Baton Rouge, is that right?
SPEAKER_04: It was so there was a private Episcopal School in Baton Rouge that was actually I later learned was quite difficult to get a job there as a first year out of college. And how was it?
SPEAKER_04: It was fantastic. So I had a wonderful year, I poured my heart into doing everything that I had learned in college. I also kind of looking back now, I think I poured my heart into outdoing every other teacher in the school and kept my eye on trying to impress the board that had given me the opportunity to be there. But I loved every second of it. And in fact, I still talk to those 17 students, many of them today.
SPEAKER_06: But from what I've read, you only you were only a teacher for a year. I mean, you had this, you know, promising career. What, why aren't you a teacher today? What happened?
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so, you know, the end of the school year came when contracts are placed in the teachers boxes, and I didn't receive one. And the school said they were not offering me a return contract. And I later learned as a first year teacher, you're considered provisional. And they said, you know, this was due to problems and concerns that were brought up from my other peer teachers and not really fitting in well. What did that mean? Yeah, exactly. I didn't know either. I did a lot of exploration at that moment, but I was devastated. I, you know, I had gone to college to be a third grade school teacher and, and here, my career was seemingly ending very quickly.
SPEAKER_06: And you never got any more specific feedback? Like, what was it that you did or not do?
SPEAKER_04: I did, I did. And I learned, you know, I was sort of breaking rules. I wasn't eating lunch with the other teachers. I wasn't hanging out in the teachers lounge, talking and connecting. And I, if I was, you know, being completely honest with myself, I did feel a little claustrophobic within the four walls of a classroom. And they were in a way, right, I did constantly look for ways to sort of leave campus early or, you know, I'd say I had a hard job and, and double book myself. And you know, it there was that wasn't in the cards for me. And yeah. But you know, after a couple of months of exploring these, these things, I just decided I'm going to move on. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06: I mean, it is amazing, though, that setbacks can actually be a blessing that you don't, you don't realize the time, right? Like a huge, like, had you had this amazing year, and they renewed your contract, and you stayed there, you might not have ever done what you did.
SPEAKER_04: Absolutely. I'm so grateful that that played out like it did, because I don't think I would have been pushed to go and change directions, I would have kept that cush job. And you know, that that's not what was in the cards for my life's work.
SPEAKER_06: So, so what did you end up doing next?
SPEAKER_04: Well, at the time, my brother was starting college at SMU in Dallas, and I had plenty of time on my hands. I wanted to help him move in the dorms and all I could do is look around at all the beautiful homes in Highland Park and how they all really needed Holly the harpist in their life.
SPEAKER_06: So you decided to stay in Dallas after helping him move in? I did.
SPEAKER_04: Well, I knew that if I were going to propose a move to my parents that I needed to have a job lined up. So I actually during that brief weekend visit, I walked over to the Dallas Country Club and knocked on the door of the general manager's office and introduced myself and told them all about my music and, and that I was hoping that they might look to have some new entertainment in their in their dining room. And I went back convinced my parents that I could make a living performing and move my harp to Dallas found an apartment and literally did the kind of back of the napkin math, like how many hours a week do I need to play the harp to pay for the rent?
SPEAKER_06: This is like 1996, I think. Yes. So you're like in your, you know, 22-23 years old, living in Dallas, playing the harp and that's that becomes your business Holly the harpist? Holly the harpist, yes.
SPEAKER_04: So I went from Dallas Country Club to the petroleum club to Brook Hollow Golf Club and, and did this made the same introduction. And this is really when I realized that building this business of Holly the harpist was when I lost all track of time and creating like direct mail pieces and, and looking into the book of lists, I often would read the CEOs and write letters to their home, you know, I'm from the south. So writing letters has always been a big part of my upbringing and, but I got a really good response from from just the jobs that I had and spent the next 10 years of my life actually performing and that's how I paid the rent.
SPEAKER_06: You are the harpist of choice or one of them, I guess in Dallas and probably making a decent living.
SPEAKER_04: I was doing really well. My rates had gone up to I had $1,000 minimum for any party which, often if a party was only an hour, that's a great money.
SPEAKER_06: That's like a lawyer. That's like a part senior partner at a law firm in New York.
SPEAKER_04: Right. I just wasn't billing the hours. Lawyer would bill.
SPEAKER_06: Yeah. So what about your personal life? Were you married? Were you single at the time?
SPEAKER_04: You know, no, I was just dating in Dallas and until my late 20s, did I not meet my now husband and his very best closest friend in college I performed I played the harp for many rehearsal dinners and weddings for their family. And Mary Montgomery, his the, you know, the person I worked that would engage me for these said you've got to meet my son's best friend. And then so that's how I met Ty and we continued dating as I performed and played until I guess we were engaged when we were about 31.
SPEAKER_06: And so this is like what 2004-ish you got engaged around then?
SPEAKER_04: 2000 more like two I think. Then two, okay. But when Ty and I started talking about a family and being married and everything, you know, performing on Mother's Day and Christmas and Thanksgiving and continuing on that path just felt like it was time to retire. It's exhausting playing evenings and that's not a real great life for having a family and sure.
SPEAKER_06: So you're kind of done with the harp side of your life. You're newly married and I guess you something happens in 2005 which is a friend of yours is diagnosed with skin cancer. Yes. And first of all, this is, I didn't know this, but this is like one of the most diagnosed form of cancer, you know, full stop. When your friend was diagnosed, what was the prognosis?
SPEAKER_04: And he's fine now. But you know, I started thinking and a good college friend of mine was going through her residency in dermatology at the time and I was talking with her about my friend's skin cancer and, you know, she said, Holly, it's not about the beach. It's about that every single day cumulative exposure that ultimately and usually much later in life becomes skin cancer. But for your friend who has blonde hair and blue eyes and, you know, it happened at a much younger age. It's not about going to the beach and not using sun lotion, sun tan lotion.
SPEAKER_06: Right. Or sunblock, whatever. It's just about being outside every day and over time some people develop skin cancer. And by the way, most people who do develop skin cancer, it's generally highly curable. If it's caught, you know, relatively early, it's like a... Yes. It found early. So you, to hear this, and what? And then you're thinking...
SPEAKER_04: Well, my initial thought was this could have just as easily have been me. I have blonde hair and blue eyes and I remember, gosh, my spring break in my middle school years, I remember going to Florida and lying on the roof of this house we rented and I got so blistering sunburned that I was sick and swollen and it ruined my entire week. But then I also immediately thought about my 17 kids that I taught that year in the classroom. And never once did I see a tube of sunscreen on the school campus, despite the fact that the children were on the playground in the middle of the day and often even staying and in sports in the afternoon, no one was wearing sunscreen.
SPEAKER_06: And to be clear, the vast majority of us are not wearing sunscreen all the time, right? This is just not part of our... It's not like brushing your teeth. Most people don't just don't do this. This is 2005 and you start to think, what? Like hey, maybe I can figure out a way to get people to wear sunscreen all the time, not just at the beach. Was that what you were thinking like immediately? Yes.
SPEAKER_04: So I found this study by Memorial Sloan Kettering that was talking about how most people knew sunscreen prevents skin cancer, but I think it was like 70% don't wear it, just like you said every single day. And the number one reason was because it didn't feel good on the skin. And I think just being a child of two entrepreneurs and always thinking about creating and building and researching and this just was really interesting. I also think that I have always been a product person, which I think kind of goes back to being with my mother and often critiquing other art and talking about skin tones and colors and the composition of things being so important to the success of that. And so I was thinking, why don't schools offer sunscreen? Why don't children have access to sunscreen in schools? And for me, I just took it to this extreme of like, gosh, we wouldn't send the kids on the playground without a fence around the playground. But we're sending them out on the playground with a carcinogen above them.
SPEAKER_06: So the original idea you had was, let me figure out how to get sunscreen into schools. Like we've got hand sanitizer dispensers. You would have those around schools and that would essentially be your business. Yes, and in part, I also knew the importance of education around this.
SPEAKER_04: And you know, I was a teacher and it wasn't a shortage of SPF products in the country that were causing the epidemic. It was a lack of education around the importance of wearing SPF every single day.
SPEAKER_06: So this is 2005. Was your idea to find an existing sunscreen brand and then just get schools to put that into their, like into the hallways? Was that, or did you already from the beginning think, I'm going to make a sunscreen?
SPEAKER_04: Well so the first step was to, what is out there? And I really wanted to look, I did not grow up wearing sunscreen every single day. So I was thinking, what is that product that I should have been wearing? And so I looked on the market and you know, like you said, in 2005, SPF was an incredibly sleepy category and it was owned by the mass channels of distribution like Walgreens and Target and Walmart. And what I found was that SPF was being promoted and marketed as an incredibly seasonal thing. And you couldn't actually even find SPF outside of May, June or July. And when I did find it, I looked at the ingredients and found that 90% of what was on the market was just full of very controversial ingredients.
SPEAKER_06: What's an example of that?
SPEAKER_04: Well so one of those that was often spotlighted was the ingredient oxybenzone, which was being found in breast cancer tissue. And what I also found is that every single chemical formula in the country relied on oxybenzone for its efficacy.
SPEAKER_06: Even the organic brands?
SPEAKER_04: Well so there were two types of formulas, there were the chemical formulas, which are those that absorb easily into the skin and they're great for athletes. And then there's mineral formulas.
SPEAKER_06: And the mineral formulas, just to be clear, those are the ones that are like really white on your skin, like the zinc sort of sticks and stuff. They feel real thick and pasty on the skin.
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, sure. And essentially you couldn't rub in the natural ones into your skin and you're thinking, hey, why isn't there a natural one that they couldn't do that?
SPEAKER_04: Yes, I felt like there was such an opportunity to do both chemical formulas, which there are advantages to, in a clean and healthy way. And mineral formulas I felt needed an upgrade too because they didn't need to feel so thick and pasty because if there were options for people to wear sunscreen every single day that were beautiful and luxurious and felt great, then that would be that first step closer to stopping skin cancer.
SPEAKER_06: All right, I'm thinking if I'm you, it's 2005, 2006 and I'm starting to kind of, you know, it sounds like we're kind of following this idea and thinking there might be something there and you're obviously learning as much as you can about sunscreen. But when I've read the backs of like comparative brands that I think are pretty great, I don't understand any of the words. Were you reading, weren't you like looking at the backs of sunscreen bottles and like, what is this? Like, did you even know what those things were?
SPEAKER_04: No, it was a lot of research, a lot of exploring. I found that there was a national sunscreen symposium and I reached out to every chemist that was speaking at that event and I just picked everybody's brain and just became obsessed with learning.
SPEAKER_06: You called them or you emailed them and asked them what? You said, I'm Holly and I'm doing, I'm starting a sunscreen brand. Like what was your pitch to them? Why would they give you the time?
SPEAKER_04: Well, fortunately for me, the chemist, all the response was very kind to me and they taught me so much about ingredient decks and most of those chemists were not up for the challenge of the challenge that I gave was I'm interested in creating an SPF product that does not have oxybenzone, does not rely on parabens, propylene glycol, a handful of other ingredients that I just wasn't that fond of. And most of what I heard was it can't be done.
SPEAKER_06: It can't be done. They were saying you can't make a sunscreen that is nonchemical that can be rubbed into skin?
SPEAKER_04: They were saying that you can't make a sunscreen that will test to a high efficacious SPF number without the use of oxybenzone and without the preservative system of a paraben, which is what keeps your product healthy and clean. It couldn't be done. So parabens were needed.
SPEAKER_06: Why is sunscreen, I had no idea that sunscreen was so complex. Well, I think what is so complicated is not necessarily having an efficacious sunscreen.
SPEAKER_04: It's limiting yourself to a certain set of ingredients and then making it aesthetically so pleasing that it would make Guy Raz want to pick it up and put it on his skin every single day.
SPEAKER_06: Got it. Because now, if you ask me, like if you saw me on the beach in the summertime, you would think I was a zebra because I just have giant white stripes all over my face. Because I'm fine with that. I don't care. But you can't do that every day, right? You can get away with that at the beach. Or if you're three years old, I remember like slathering on white zinc stuff on my kid's face. But you can't, you're saying you wanted to do something that you could use every day and you can't look like a zebra every day.
SPEAKER_04: Well, and the reason for that is that in my research, I learned that there's UVA rays and there's UVB rays. And UVB rays cause that burning on your skin that changes the color of your skin. But UVA rays are not only aging, but they penetrate deeper into the skin than UVB. And they're present in all seasons, no matter what the weather is, even on a cloudy day. And they're skin cancer causing. So you clearly are starting to develop an expertise on sunscreen.
SPEAKER_06: But like, you're not picking something, you're not picking like cookies to bake. You can't do this alone. You actually have to go and find somebody willing to make you a product that doesn't have the ingredients that you don't want it to have, but that does what you want it to do.
SPEAKER_04: Correct. That is the joke around our family is you had to do sunscreen, Holly, because it's very difficult to formulate. And so where do you go? I started with the first chemist that said, that's interesting. That's an interesting idea. I didn't realize that oxybenzone was so controversial. And he was willing to completely pro bono start working on a formula to see if we could rise to the challenge of creating something that felt great on the skin and was healthy and ingredient choices.
SPEAKER_06: And who was this lab and where were they and how did you get in touch with them?
SPEAKER_04: So through those conversations with chemists from the National Sunscreen Symposium is who I found that the first chemist was in California. And I'm in Texas. And I think, you know, in a good way, a lot of chemists are a little nerdy and up for challenging things like that. And I just got lucky too, I think.
SPEAKER_06: But how did you convince this chemist to make your prototype? I mean, putting on my hat is like a, you know, entrepreneur hat. Right. And that's not enough. Right. Right. I mean, you just call you can't just call somebody up and say, I have this mission, I want to do it. And then the person says, okay, I'm going to devote all this time in my lab to working on building a prototype for you. Like it had to have been harder than that. Maybe it wasn't.
SPEAKER_04: I don't know. You know, I think telling my story, my intention for this magic formula that we were going to create was to put it in every school across America. And so I, you know, sold that story of, gosh, we're going to create this and every child in the country is going to be wearing this game changing SPF. And that is when, and the process of creating an SPF product takes a while. And once I had that kind of off and running with the right chemist who I felt was up for the challenge, I then sort of pivoted my time and attention to how are we going to do this in a beautiful way that's fun and playful and, you know, more of the marketing and education side of the business.
SPEAKER_06: And did you fly out to work with the chemist or were you just dealing with the person on the phone or the email or like how did that work?
SPEAKER_04: We had a lot of phone calls about what I felt like, you know, the characteristics of the texture, the feel, and then they started mailing FedEx. We did mailing samples and then I'd give feedback on those samples and I just kind of passed them around in my family and asked what they thought of this goop or that goop. You already knew you were going to call it goop. I did not. I just actually called it goop because I didn't know the word lab sample, I think. You know, it wasn't from the beauty industry. Yeah, it was goop. It's sort of glop or whatever. It was goopy.
SPEAKER_06: Yeah. Yeah. And in the meantime, what were you doing? I mean, you're living in Dallas still at the time. What were you doing?
SPEAKER_04: I was completely obsessed with this project. I pulled my sister who's an excellent writer into helping me create an educational curriculum. You know, I mean, changing consumer behaviors, like one of the most difficult things to do, right? But I looked at campaigns like Lady Bird Johnson's Don't Be a Litterbug. When she was first lady, she started that Don't Be a Litterbug campaign. And it wasn't necessarily the children that were throwing the diet Cokes out the window, but it was their parents. And so I thought, this is really interesting because through a very playful way, she's got the kids telling their parents not to be a litterbug, which is going to ultimately change the parents' behavior. And so I thought if I could create this first formula and make it a fun and playful way that appealed to young children to then sort of bug the adults in their life, there was something there. So you've got this product that's being developed.
SPEAKER_06: And what are they making it with? I mean, if all these scientists were saying, hey, you got to use oxybenzone, that's the most effective way to protect your skin from UV rays, and there's no other way to do it. What, I mean, what? Yeah, actually, what I learned was oxybenzone is not the only way, it's the most inexpensive
SPEAKER_04: way. And again, going back to most SPF was a mass product and mass products are, you know, as inexpensive as possible. It turned out that there was a counterpart, avobenzone, that could help achieve the efficacy needed, but it just costs a little bit more. Avobenzone. Avobenzone. And that's still today what we've used in our chemical formula. And where does it come from?
SPEAKER_04: It's a raw ingredient that you buy from the people that make, I mean, there's different brand names like Parcel and that make that.
SPEAKER_06: So you managed to work with this lab entirely remotely, like you never had to go and present to them or anything? They just kind of- I didn't have the money to go and promote.
SPEAKER_04: I was bootstrapping this with my new husband and we were thinking about having a baby and he was thinking actually about going out on his own at the time. He has a background in, he practiced law out of law school and he has a real entrepreneurial spirit as well. And so we were both bootstrapping all of the cost. All right.
SPEAKER_06: So you're going back and forth and you finally settle on what you think is right. And how do you know? How did you know that they finally got it? Like the smell of it and the feel of it? Was it just you were just using your own judgment, your own instinct?
SPEAKER_04: It was probably the 15th or 20th iteration on a formula that we had tweaked many times over those two years that finally felt amazing on the skin and it tested because it has to be efficacious. And it was then that I literally said, this is super. And the name immediately occurred to me that I had also in that moment named the brand.
SPEAKER_06: Super goop. Super goop. And was it SPF 15 or 30 or what? Yeah, it was a 50. It's a 50. It's a 50.
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
SPEAKER_06: Which is exactly what we were aiming for. And so you get the final, you get the one that works. And would you like slather it on and go outside and just stand outside in the sun?
SPEAKER_04: I started wearing it every single day because I had to know over the long term if that was something that was actually a pleasant experience. Right. And in fact, I've always believed in no animal testing or anything. So I often laughed and made my husband the guinea pig and say, hey, can you put some of this in your eyes and make sure it doesn't burn?
SPEAKER_06: Had you by that point formed like an LLC and done all the formal stuff that people do to start a business?
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, along the way, I definitely relied on my husband. He had, I mentioned a background in law and he helped me with registering the trademark and forming an LLC. And I've just put a few of the things that weren't too costly in place to start creating this business.
SPEAKER_06: So you've got the formula, you've got the name, and now it's time to go to the schools. And I'm assuming, you know, you kind of rip out your old playbook where when you contacted the CEOs of companies to play the harp or you called all these scientists, I'm assuming you start calling school administrators?
SPEAKER_04: You're right. I started writing a playbook and started talking to the heads of schools and school boards. And I very quickly learned that as an over the counter drug, sunscreen is actually prohibited in schools across America. So you just spent two years building this prototype only to discover that you have no
SPEAKER_06: market, no marketplace. Right. Wow. Your whole business model is down the tubes. Exactly. Can we come back in just a moment how Holly eventually pivots out of schools and into retail and along the way hires a publicist that she cannot afford and makes a connection at Sephora that she cannot afford to lose? Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to How I Built This. Signing your life away to a big wireless provider is kind of like being trapped on a roller coaster from hell. Sure, it looked fun at first. They probably threw in a free phone. But now you can't get off month after month of insane bills and unexpected thrills like overages and surprise fees. If that sounds like your current big wireless plan, it's time to get off the ride with Mint Mobile for a limited time. Wireless plans from Mint Mobile are just $15 a month. That's unlimited talk, text and data for just $15 a month. And the coverage is amazing. I live in the so-called tech capital of the world and there are major parts of San Francisco where I didn't get cell reception. But that all changed once I started using Mint Mobile. The coverage is amazing and it's a fraction of the cost. To get your new unlimited wireless plan for just $15 a month and get the plan shipped to your door for free, go to mintmobile.com slash built. Get your wireless bill to $15 a month at mintmobile.com slash built. Hey I have a quick request for all of you and I've got a way to actually see all of your responses. So here it is. Name a public figure who's really inspired you. Just let me know on the How I Built This Community Miro board. Go to Miro.com slash built and add your thoughts. That's M-I-R-O dot com slash built. It's that easy. Miro is actually sponsoring this episode and if you haven't heard of it, Miro is this incredible online workspace. Our team actually uses it for a lot of our own brainstorms and processes and it's super useful. So if you're thinking of building something of your own, you might try using Miro to create a pitch deck, plot your customer journey map, get feedback or whatever helps you hit the ground running. It's kind of amazing how much you can do on your Miro board. I cannot wait to hear from you on our How I Built This Community Miro board. Who knows, maybe you'll inspire me to reach out to some new guests for the show. Go to Miro dot com slash built to leave your answers with sticky notes, comments and reactions. That's Miro dot com slash B-U-I-L-T. One more thing before we get back to the show. Please make sure to click the follow button on your podcast app so you never miss a new episode of the show and it's totally free. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. So it was 2007 and Holly Thagard had a big problem. She built a sunscreen company, Supergoop, with the goal of getting SPF into schools. But at the time, most public schools did not allow students to use sunscreen without a prescription or a doctor's note. So Holly thought, well, maybe I should try the private schools where the rules aren't as strict. And she actually made a bit of headway.
SPEAKER_04: I did. I launched five private schools. All in Dallas, the Dallas area? No, Dallas and Louisiana, Baton Rouge, where I'm from, and in Dallas.
SPEAKER_06: So how did you approach the schools? Did you just get like a directory or go online and just type? I did.
SPEAKER_04: I think I looked in the private school directories by city and I would call and ask for a meeting. Dating back to sitting under my father's desk, reading and listening to Zig Ziglar tapes, which is what I did throughout my childhood. Zig Ziglar, was he just like that guy who told you, like motivational speaker on sales,
SPEAKER_06: like for sales, right?
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, he was a sales and marketing genius. Like guru.
SPEAKER_06: Like he had these tapes in the 70s and 80s maybe. He's a right?
SPEAKER_04: Yes, exactly. I learned from Zig so many things that I still reference today. You know, you have to have so many no's before a yes and attitude is everything. Being optimistic and thinking positively. And I mean, I spent weekends sitting under my father's desk listening and absorbing these neatly organized tapes that he would bring home from having been president of the sales and marketing club. And that really shaped how I approached things because, you know, those conversations with those schools, I just kept going, kept going. If one said no, I'd go to another one.
SPEAKER_06: So school would say no, no interest. And you would say, okay, well, thank you very much. And you move on.
SPEAKER_04: I'd move on, but I'd still keep them informed of everything I was doing. Because you know, I also learned from those tapes that no is just tell me more, right? And so, you know, I'd hear no. And I'd realize that maybe they're just going to say no for another month. And then they'll eventually say yes.
SPEAKER_06: So it's 2007, you've got this formula, you're in a couple of private schools, but that's not enough, presumably to really sustain a business. And how were you dealing with finances? I mean, you had to get the product made from that. I'm assuming that lab was making the product for you, even for those five schools.
SPEAKER_04: Yes, they were making it in large pumps. And we were really just coming up with every which way we could financially pay for it.
SPEAKER_06: And how was that? Well, we had I know our Amex was maxed out to the limit, which was like $30,000.
SPEAKER_04: It wasn't a huge number, but but it was always it was always about that. And I also convinced the people that were making this product that they needed to also I didn't have a warehouse or anything. So I convinced them to warehouse it for me and then let me pay as I pulled from the warehouse. And then of course, you know, I could also go play the harp. And, you know, anytime I started to get concerned about cash, I'd take a harp job and use that to pay for the product. It was pretty messy, actually. We didn't keep real good track of the financials at that point, because we were just still kind of testing this whole model. And you're right that that soon became after one year of being in the school that year, it seemingly became hard to scale.
SPEAKER_06: And did you I mean, I'm assuming you were not packaging these into small bottles with the branding and the logo. This was just like, or were you like, not yet they were still in 24 ounce containers.
SPEAKER_04: They did have our logo, which I'd created in Photoshop, and I sort of self taught how to make a label and how to make a barcode and, and the logo that you even have to this
SPEAKER_06: day you created that in Photoshop.
SPEAKER_04: I did. And actually the logo today we just had a refresh on our brand about four months ago, actually, and tweaked a little bit here and there with my handwriting. I'm, I'm also obsessed with handwriting and, and so we digitally used my handwriting to tweak the original logo. So you've got the product and you're trying to, you know, mount a campaign and to get
SPEAKER_06: people to know more about this. But it doesn't sound like you're really making a whole lot of traction. The school's thing wasn't, doesn't sound like it was really working. So what did you, how were you going to build this out into something bigger?
SPEAKER_04: Well so I started just looking at what retail look would look like and what is the world of prestige children's retail? And how do brands go into what I thought were some of the best storytellers like FAO Schwartz in New York or the now defunct Giggle was a very popular, very highly curated store of just the best of the best things from San Francisco to New York and started down this path of going to trade shows and showing my line to buyers of little prestige mom and pop and retailers that could help support my vision and tell the story in their, in their location across the country.
SPEAKER_06: Your husband was a lawyer, so he had some income, but were you like getting help from friends and family at this point? I mean, cause still like, right, you can't run the business on air and were you asking people for help?
SPEAKER_04: Yeah. So my husband was not practicing law anymore. He was actually going out on his own in real estate investing. And so we were definitely depleting all of our savings. And it really wasn't until I think Thanksgiving of gosh, 2008 ish that we asked my dad for $25,000, I think.
SPEAKER_06: So he kind of saved you.
SPEAKER_04: He did. It was that, you know, every entrepreneur has the Thanksgiving dinner story. And I had another trade show I wanted to go to in Vegas and I asked, you know, my dad at the dinner table, I think like if he'd be willing to give us $25,000 and that really forced this conversation of how are you planning to scale this? Because I think at this point we were like literally making 45,000 in sales, I want to say a year. And how are you going to scale this, Holly, because even if you double tripled your trade show at this trade show that you want to go to, you know, that's still not much money.
SPEAKER_06: And did you need the money for that trade show to make product to bring to that trade show?
SPEAKER_04: No, I needed the money to actually pay for the trade show itself, to like pay for the booth. And I had at that point also received a phone call from the skincare buyer at Sephora.
SPEAKER_06: So wait, while all this other stuff is going on, Sephora, which is like a huge beauty company, like retail company, they also reach out to you. Like how did the buyer even know about the product?
SPEAKER_04: Well, she was a new mom and she had been shopping at Giggle, which was that little boutique retailer that I landed at one of my other trade shows. And she purchased it for her child and also took it to the Sephora corporate office and they started passing it around and having this conversation. Apparently what they shared with me was that they felt most skincare today, and this was, you know, 2008, nine, uh, was really highly clinical and built on doctor driven brands and not fun and playful. And they thought there was something really interesting about a brand that was very serious in technology, but doing it in a very fun and playful spirit.
SPEAKER_06: So all right, so Sephora calls you out of the blue. By the way, I think at this time you had your phone number on the, on the bottle, right? Your personal cell number?
SPEAKER_04: Well and that was so that if anybody wanted to talk about Supergoop, they would reach me directly. And she said, we like what you're doing and we don't think that you're ready for a meeting, but we thought maybe we could be helpful. And you know, Sephora is known to really nurture indie brands and brands with strong founder visions. And, and she said, you know, I thought I would reach out and just share a few things that might be a good idea for you before, if you're interested in us and then maybe you can get in touch when you feel that you've grown up a little bit.
SPEAKER_06: And what was her name? Kim Holt. And what did Kim suggest you do? She said you need press. She said you need, if you want to get into Sephora, you got to start with getting some more press. Yes.
SPEAKER_04: So in 2008, you know, this is before Instagram and influencer marketing. And it was all really about those press placements that you'd get in the magazine that showed your product. They were very product driven and that's what sold product in Sephora. So I had none of that.
SPEAKER_06: So what did you do?
SPEAKER_04: Well, so that 25,000 that my dad, the next day left our home after Thanksgiving and he left a check on the counter and he said to me, Holly, go get your elephant. And that was his way of saying stop messing with all these small little retailers and, and go get a big account. And so I went to Vegas, we put that booth together. But what I found when I got to Vegas was, was just like, I could have cried. I had really fought to be in the natural and organic and very thoughtfully curated selections of the show. But what I found was I was smack dab in the middle of all of the granola and very homegrown brands and all of the very cool, modern, beautifully aesthetic brands were up on the second floor. And the lady in the booth right next to me had a brand called Happy Green Bee. And she spent the whole show all five days knitting. And and the show was so slow that I spent most of my time in her booth learning to knit.
SPEAKER_06: I thought this was going to tell me about how you found a publicist. Did you find them at the show?
SPEAKER_04: Well, kind of. The last day when everyone was breaking apart their booths and everything, I was, you know, walking around and somebody came up to me and said, gosh, you've really gotten to be good buddies with Roxanne. And I said, oh, I know, you know, we had way too much time to talk during this show, not not enough sales. And they said, well, I would imagine she could really help you. And I was like, what do you mean? And she said, you know who that is? Holly, it's Roxanne Quimby, the founder of Burt's Bees.
SPEAKER_06: You saw Roxanne Quimby, who has been on our show. We've had her on our show. She's amazing. You so you did you go up to her?
SPEAKER_04: Yeah. And I walked back over there and I was like, Roxanne, how could you not tell me that you were the founder? You were Roxanne Quimby, the founder of Burt's Bees.
SPEAKER_06: She's super low key.
SPEAKER_04: Super low key. And she said, Holly, I wanted to hear your story and your vision without you knowing that.
SPEAKER_06: So what then what? I mean, do you like exchange numbers, emails, you go for coffee? What do you do? No, it's the last day of the show.
SPEAKER_04: She said very quickly, how can I help you? I want to help. I like what you're doing. And I said, I need a PR firm in New York and I can't get one to save my life.
SPEAKER_04: And and an hour later, Nancy Berman was calling me while I was in a cab to the airport. And she Nancy is the founder of Berman Communications, which was known as the biggest beauty PR firm in New York. And she said, I just got off the phone with Roxanne Quimby. And she says, I need to fly to Texas to meet you.
SPEAKER_06: She says, I got a flight to Texas to meet you. You're doing forty five thousand bucks a year in sales. And this this is like a big shot PR person. And you're like, great, let's do it.
SPEAKER_04: No, actually, I immediately kicked into, well, she needs to know there's competition because I know this is going to cost me an arm and a leg. And so I said, well, actually, I'm going to be in New York next week interviewing several other PR firms. And I'd love to schedule you in. Well, which was totally made up on the fly. Nice.
SPEAKER_06: So, OK, so then you like you fly to New York.
SPEAKER_04: So well, then I grabbed my sister, my brother, my husband. You know, the company was still just me. So I had to put people in the room to look like we were doing something bigger than we were. And I did, in fact, get several other PR meetings with quite a few of her competitors based on being able to call and saying, I'm coming to New York to sit down with Nancy Berman next week. And I'd like to also I hear I should also be talking with your firm.
SPEAKER_06: So Nancy, presumably you end up working with Nancy.
SPEAKER_04: She did. She rolled out the red carpet. And I was very impressed with we were all very impressed with her pitch.
SPEAKER_06: But given that you only had forty five thousand revenue for the year, which is not profit, how much did Nancy cost you to bring her on?
SPEAKER_04: Well, that was the hard part, because when it got to be the last page of her proposal, it was where we started talking about money and knowing that the world of PR wasn't going to talk about SPF outside of the summer months. She pitched me on a six month contract that would go from January to June. And she felt in that time we could in January hit the long leads to make sure we were in the April, May books. And she would charge us twelve thousand dollars a month, but only six months out of the twelve. So seventy two thousand dollars.
SPEAKER_06: And you thought?
SPEAKER_04: I think I might have said, have you been listening to everything that I've been talking about? Because I'm trying to de-seasonalize a category and it's never going to happen if I'm only talking to the beauty editors. And I think everybody's going, oh, my gosh, she's trying to convince now Nancy to take a twelve month retainer. And I always credit my husband for this because that sounds crazy to pay twelve months of a retainer when we weren't even making in revenue. But he was adamant about you've got to do this, Holly. This is your path to Sephora and that's your elephant. And we will figure out how to pay for this.
SPEAKER_06: So you were going to pay basically you decide we're going to get the best publicist because we this is our one. This is our moonshot here. It's going to cost us two years of our revenue to get this publicist. And you basically take the plunge. And I think she came down to about eight thousand a month because it was a twelve month retainer.
SPEAKER_06: Right. And when you signed on with her, where did where was she able to place stories about Supergoop in all the beauty magazines?
SPEAKER_04: So Allure and, you know, just the traditional press. And did that move the needle?
SPEAKER_06: Did you get did you start to get a lot of a lot of people inquiring?
SPEAKER_04: We did. And and we also got that helped a lot with the launch in Barney's New York, which Nancy set up an interview with the beauty buyer of Barney's. And she actually was a skin cancer survivor. So she really a very fair skin. Her name is Bettina O'Neill. And she bought into the idea of building a skin care brand with a foundation in SPF.
SPEAKER_06: And Barney's certainly at that time was really important, a really influential place to be.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, we launched in Shell in their apothecary. And, you know, there are things that came from that that were super inspiring along the way. And I think being asked to I know we got a call once from Elon Musk's team to put Supergoop into all of his roadsters that were taking a press tour down the BCH or something. And I thought, you know, gosh, if Supergoop makes sense, because the roadster was a convertible, you know, could be in every cup holder. Yeah, a lot of a lot of cool people would see it. I think that's the year that we also were asked to join the TED conference in Long Beach and put our products into the hands of all the attendees. And that's and by the way, they don't pay you for that. You got to donate that. That was 100% donation. And I had to create a custom box because I wanted my story to be on the box. Because I knew that if it weren't, nobody would know what the meaning behind the product was. So really kind of went out on a limb there.
SPEAKER_06: Yeah. And at what point do you feel comfortable to reach back out to Sephora and say, hey, look, you know, we've been we got in a couple of magazines and we get a little bit more publicity because I'm assuming you're still not really profitable at this point?
SPEAKER_04: No, no, we're not. This was in a couple of years after that press and growing and my revenue went from 45 to I know 150 to I think 600. So we were, you know, we were increasing and growing the business. It was by no means profitable. And I don't think I was even keeping quite good track of the finances like that. I just knew I had to keep going. And it was actually in 2010 when I felt like I was ready to talk again to Sephora.
SPEAKER_06: You call the same person who originally called you?
SPEAKER_04: I called her and left her a voicemail and told her that I was going to be in San Francisco the following week for I gave her a five or six day range, because I wanted to make sure that she could find a minute for me on her calendar. And she didn't call me back.
SPEAKER_06: When we come back in just a moment, Holly makes a desperate last minute flight to San Francisco to try to get Sephora's attention. Stay with us. You're listening to how I built this.
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SPEAKER_06: Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. So it's around 2010 and Holly is trying to get a hold of a buyer. She once talked to you at Sephora, but phone calls aren't working. So without a plan, Holly gets on a plane instead. Well, so I felt obligated to go to San Francisco because I said on her voicemail that I was
SPEAKER_04: going to be there on other business. And I didn't, I was afraid that she might eventually call during that week. And then if I weren't in San Francisco, she'd be calling me out. And I didn't even have a hotel reserved when I got on the plane to go there. I just knew that I had to be there. And I cried the whole way there and found a shoebox of a hotel in Union Square that I remember like going in and it didn't even have windows and the bathroom was down the hall and I was so upset because we didn't have a lot of money. And this was an expensive thing for me to go do when I didn't really have anything to do there.
SPEAKER_06: Does she call you back?
SPEAKER_04: So I went to bed that night and at 1130, my cell phone lit up and it said Sephora on it. And that's how I had programmed her name into my phone was as Sephora. And I don't know why she was up late at the office that night. But she said, I think you might be in San Francisco. And she said, Well, we would love to meet with you. Are you available tomorrow morning at 10am? Amazing.
SPEAKER_06: So you go to go to Sephora headquarters. And did you have a bunch of product with you like samples? Oh, I was so prepared.
SPEAKER_04: I had foam boards with each of my products, the pricing, you know, and I had product with me and they just said, Tell me about what you're trying to do here. And I walked them through my story from teacher to, to where we are today and why I needed their help and and why I felt like they could help put a megaphone to this message.
SPEAKER_06: And did they say all right, we're in we will work with you.
SPEAKER_04: They did not. They just okay. They just said, we enjoyed meeting you. I thought the meeting went really well. It lasted, you know, a good hour and a half and, and I felt pretty good about the potential and they said they would be in touch.
SPEAKER_06: And that was it.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
SPEAKER_06: And I got to go home early. So you go go back on the plane, I'm assuming on the way back, you were not crying.
SPEAKER_04: Well, actually, I the next morning woke up and, you know, my father growing up had this thing about doing things in twos. And he always said to me, the best time to accomplish something is after you've accomplished something. You're on a high you feel optimistic, you feel good about yourself. And so whenever I had done something well, he would say, that's awesome. Holly, that's so great. I'm great. Great to hear it. Now what are you going to do? And so I felt like that next morning, I had to figure out what the answer to like, I felt really good. You're right. I felt like I had to know what was next.
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, I mean, you must have been feeling pretty confident because I think like, maybe even the same day you you decided to reach out to the buyer of Nordstrom too, right?
SPEAKER_04: Yeah. So I said that I was in San Francisco, talking with Sephora about a spring 2011 launch,
SPEAKER_06: which was not totally true. Really? Yeah, no, I you were kind of bluffing, bluffing, hoping, willing it to be true.
SPEAKER_04: Yes, okay. And I would love to come through Orange County on the way back to Texas and share with her more about my brand.
SPEAKER_06: And was she in?
SPEAKER_04: She sounded really interested and optimistic. Again, she didn't give me any answers, you know, Johnny on the spot, but she sounded interested and and I felt good about flying home and and then doing the follow up that was needed to land both of these accounts. And I feel like that was a real important for me was when I think about where I saw our brand, I felt like so the Sephora demographic, the customer was young, and they're playing with makeup, they needed to understand how important it was to first protect their skin. And for the Nordstrom customer, I felt like that was the mom with three kids in tow and a stroller and she really needed to be instrumental in teaching young children these healthy habits. So I felt like the two brands were the ideal launchpad for me in the country together.
SPEAKER_06: But how do you get into them? What convinces Sephora to finally call you and say, Okay, we'll do it. And then of course, you know, what kind of shelf space you're going to get and how long so what what was the deal they offered you?
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so well, and to back up a little bit, I got home and for several weeks didn't you know, I sent my follow up email my you know, exactly as I should have post a meeting, but I didn't hear from either of them. Oh, wow, nothing not even like a great to meet, no, not nothing.
SPEAKER_04: And like the silent treatment for six weeks the rest of that year, actually. And so that's when my husband and I were kind of tapped out on the money side. And, and we went to my brother who, after graduating SMU moved to New York, started a business and has been super successful building it to several hundred people with his partners. And we asked him if he would be interested in investing. And he agreed. And he agreed. He said, you know, Holly, I'm, I'm think if he were here today on the podcast, he'd probably say, you know, I was betting on the jockey, not the horse. And he put in initially $750,000. Wow.
SPEAKER_06: So you're assuming that, that in March of 2011, you're you're going to do a nationwide launch somewhere, but you don't have any commitments, I guess, from Sephora or Nordstrom. So when, when do they call or when does Sephora call? January 26.
SPEAKER_04: And I know the date because it's my brother's birthday. And they called you on the 26th. They called me on the 26th. And it was actually 2011. Well, and she called and said, Holly, it's Kim. And I'm super excited to share that we are going to prepare for a summer launch in all stores and a big hit in cap for the 12 weeks of summer.
SPEAKER_06: So good news, because Sephora is going to launch, but only 12 weeks and only in the summer, which kind of undermines your whole narrative, because you don't, you're not selling a summer product. Exactly. So would you say?
SPEAKER_04: I said, you know, as flattering as this is, and I'm super excited and want this badly. I need to scale my size down to whatever size makes sense that you can assure me 12 months of distribution. You're talking about the size of the bottle?
SPEAKER_04: The size of the space on the shelf. So on the shelf. Yes, I don't an end cap is that big fancy thing at the end of the aisle where you have five shelves and it's full of products. I didn't expect that they would hold that for a 12 month period. So I convinced them. And this is how I really knew that Sephora was the right partner for me. They listened and they said, you know, let us take this back and think about how we could do this and assure you 12 months of distribution, which I also didn't know that that's kind of crazy. Really retailers don't launch with any guaranteed one year of distribution.
SPEAKER_06: Right. And how much shelf space do they offer you?
SPEAKER_04: So they later called and said they were excited to share that they were going to open a new wall in Sephora called skincare favorites. And they have secured six inches of space and to pick my two favorite products. And is that is that pretty good?
SPEAKER_06: Because I'm thinking six inches. My God, there's nothing in a big store. But is that is that were you happy with that?
SPEAKER_04: I was ecstatic. This sounded like a dream. It sounded like something that I could manage. Again, I didn't have a team. I didn't have a marketing team. I didn't have people in the stores to help sell it. I felt like that was positioning us in the skincare category, which is how I've always seen our brand as not a sunscreen brand. We are a true skincare, but all about protection. And that's our thing. So I was just thrilled.
SPEAKER_06: So summer of 2011, you debut at Sephora?
SPEAKER_04: Yes. And I had nurtured the Nordstrom relationship along the way and keeping in touch and, and we launched in 47 stores. So I had full distribution in Sephora and 47 Nordstroms and a lot of work to do.
SPEAKER_06: Right. Because you still even if you're in Sephora, Nordstrom, it doesn't mean people are going to go to your product and buy it. You got to tell you got explained, you got to get them to buy it. So how did you do that? Exactly.
SPEAKER_04: Well, because of that 12 months of distribution, I think that really shaped how I thought about product. I thought I've always thought about innovation in SPF and how do I create products that are game changing that you will reach for in those shoulder seasons. And I had created these sunscreen swipes that were a way to reapply your SPF in a talent and they were at the time pretty new to the world. And I didn't really realize it at the time because I didn't know what success meant at Sephora but I would go around to stores during that period and the swipes were always gone. They were just wiped out of the off the shelf.
SPEAKER_06: Hmm. Oh, yeah. What what explain that?
SPEAKER_04: Apparently, you know, the swipes were a huge hit and the world loved them. And the problem was I knew that my sales couldn't be great if there were no products on the shelf. And so I started what I like later coined within my family as reverse stealing. But I didn't know how to get product to the shelves. And I knew I couldn't get make the numbers if there weren't products. So I'd go into as many stores as I could with swipes in my bag and literally like stock the shelves. Like I give them product. Wow. Which is crazy, right? Wow. I love that story. By the way, I've never told that story. It just popped in my head, which is so crazy. But like, I literally remember going into stores and pushing products onto the store shelves.
SPEAKER_06: All right, so you are you're now you know, in these brands, by the way, had that was there immediate or fairly quick impact on your revenue? I mean, you've gone from what? 150 went to like 600 in a year in that year 2011.
SPEAKER_06: Wow. So that was and then what about 2012?
SPEAKER_04: We kept doubling. We've been doubling and sometimes more than that since.
SPEAKER_06: So 2012 you pass a million dollars in sales. Yes. What did it now start to become easier to raise money outside because it up until this point it was just family is your dad, your brother, you and your husband. Now it's to scale. I'm imagining you want it to go out and raise more money because it costs money. You got to make the product. You got to make the bottles and distributions expensive. Or did you did you say you know what, we're just we're not gonna raise money. We're gonna sell fund this thing.
SPEAKER_04: No, no. And I've always known, you know, when you have this vision to change the way the world thinks about sunscreen scaling is super important. And also I'm dealing with a category where we actually have to convince people why they need to wear SPF and then why super goop. So you know, I often say like, imagine I was having lunch with the founders of MZ Wallace, which is a handbag brand. And I said, you know, imagine if you had to convince women everywhere to carry a bag with them everywhere with their water bottle and their wallet and their purse and their phone and their umbrella. Yeah, you don't you just have to sell them on your bags. But for me, I've always looked at it like I have to convince first people the why it's so important that they protect their skin and then secondary to that is why super goop. So yes, it's been very expensive from a marketing perspective. And I was still not profitable at that point. So raising money was something that was just a necessary thing that we had to do. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06: And so I guess you were eventually able to raise like, like $2 million from from a combination of friends and family and even some some private investors and people in the medical field that I should mention tennis star Maria Sharapova. How did that happen?
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so that was just a phone call from her agent that said, I'm Maria Sharapova agent and I'm like googling Maria Sharapova and see what's in the word sunscreen and she said, she found your product at Sephora and it's the only product she can compete in. Wow. And it doesn't burn her eyes. And so she's interested if you guys are there have ever thought about making an investment and actually this was a just about the same time as our friends and family was still open and I thought the first thing I need to do is get to LA to meet her because of course if we're going to have an investor come into the brand, she's becoming part of our family and so I want to make sure She could also be a brand ambassador or spokesperson presumably.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so we flew out there and spent a day visiting with she and her agent and you know honestly put the deal together really quickly.
SPEAKER_06: Wow. Holly, as you grew and today I think that the latest public numbers I found are that you did like 40 million in revenue in 2018 and maybe more in 2019 I'm assuming but at a certain point you decide to open up a New York office. You were based in San Antonio. You've got a New York office. You hired a president to more or less run the company and from what I understand like this was sort of a request from your investors. You're like, hey Holly, you're great. You're really good at what you do but like you need an operations person. That's not your strength. Is that true? Is that how it went down?
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, you know, so we had our series A followed our friends and family and one of the former partners at TSG, John Kenney, was going off on his own to create what is now cult capital and he asked to lead our series A round and he said, Holly, what is it you want to do for this next phase of Supergoop? And I said, John, I want to build a team. I want help. I want a presence in New York City and we decided together that it was time to go on that search for a brand president who could be the perfect integrator for my vision and she's been now with us for four years.
SPEAKER_06: And this is Amanda Baldwin, right?
SPEAKER_04: Yes. And having had Amanda to help was a real turning point for me in realizing the time to put our foot on the gas and build the team that we needed to take this and make the magic of Supergoop happen. 2019 for Supergoop was our year to get to profitability and double digit profitability this year.
SPEAKER_06: Do you think that what's happened to you and the success of the company is because of your skill and work ethic or do you think more of it has to do with luck?
SPEAKER_04: I think it's a little bit of both, Guy. You know, if I think back, was it skill that positioned me next to Roxanne Quimby in Vegas? No, but it was very strategic in that I was telling my story to everybody that would listen. And same is true with my launch at Sephora because, gosh, I was lucky the skincare buyer that year happened to be pregnant and shopping in Giggle. But I put my number on the carton and so anybody could reach me and that was strategic. That's something you mentioned earlier, but I want to ask you this again.
SPEAKER_06: How do you think being a musician, playing the harp, helped you be an entrepreneur?
SPEAKER_04: I think being a musician has really helped me in just learning those how to break it down. And you can be overwhelmed if you picture opening a piece of sheet music and there's just notes everywhere and staff and it can look very jumbled and like, how in the world am I ever going to learn this whole song? But what you learn in music is to break it down and learn the first measure, learn the right hand, then learn the left and then put the right and the left together. And then once you've mastered that, go on to the second measure. And if you continue to break it down like that, you eventually have a beautiful song. And I think also though, for me, because I started performing at such a young age, it gave me so much confidence. And if you think about playing Here Comes the Bride to a church that's full of people that are everyone's dead silent and you are the music, you're the only thing that anyone's listening to. And this is this bride's biggest day of her life. It really gives you the confidence to think you can do anything. And that helps me and has over the years as we've been fundraising and you've got to be completely confident to walk into any scenario and pitch your brand and sell them on a valuation that you believe in. And I think the music really is what gave me that.
SPEAKER_06: That's Holly Thagard, founder of Supergoop. Our conversation was recorded back in 2020. Since then, Supergoop has kept growing. In 2022, the company reached $250 million in sales. By the way, since Holly got her start, many states have changed their laws and now allow kids to use sunscreen in schools. So Supergoop has started a program where they give it out for free. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to click the follow button on your podcast app so you never miss a new episode. And as always, it's totally free. This episode was produced by James Delahusi with music composed by Ramtin Arablui. It was edited by Neva Grant. Our production staff also includes JC Howard, Casey Herman, Sam Paulson, Ramell Wood, Alex Chung, Elaine Coates, John Isabella, Chris Masini and Carla Estevez. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to How I Built This. Hey Prime members, you can listen to How I Built This early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. If you want to show your support for our show, be sure to get your How I Built This merch and gear at wonderyshop.com. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery's podcast, American Scandal.
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