Selects: The Case of Sacco and Vanzetti

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SPEAKER_06: Howdy, everybody.This is Chuck here of the Stuff You Should Know podcast, and it is Saturday.It's actually Wednesday in my real-time world, but in the future, it will be Saturday when you're listening to this, because it is my charge to deliver to you a classic Stuff You Should Know episode, handpicked and curated by yours truly.And this week, we're going with a pretty good history up for March 2019, the case of Sacco and Vanzetti. SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. SPEAKER_04: Hey, and welcome to the podcast.I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and there's guest producer Josh over there.So you put the three of us together, and we're going to get a little true crime history on you with the trial of Sacco and Vanzetti. SPEAKER_06: Yeah, these guys... I mean, a little backstory on, I guess, the time.We're talking about the 1920s in the United States.We're talking about two gentlemen that were both anarchists, that were both Italian immigrants, and both supposedly followers of this really notable anarchist named Luigi Gagliani.Right. who this guy was sort of an anarchist leader.He put out an anarchist rag.He was called for violence.He has a history of authorizing like bombings, assassination attempts, like really tough stuff.And so this is who supposedly Sacco and Vanzetti were, you know, I guess by association advocating – advocating? Yeah. Sure.Advocating for this type of violence themselves as immigrant anarchists. SPEAKER_04: Do you remember in our anarchism episode, like during this period, in like a 10-year period, anarchists assassinated like five or six major heads of state around the world, including McKinley in the United States.It was a big deal.It was. It was a big deal.And I mean, there was also a struggle going on for the soul of America.Were we going to be socialists?Were we going to be capitalists?Should we just go with anarchism?There was a lot of a lot of. debate over you know which which economy we should go with or what what politics we should go with and there was something of a red scare because communism was on the table too there was a red scare at the time too so it wasn't like the kind of time you would walk around like yeah i'm an anarchist no get on board you know but and at the same time if you weren't an anarchist you're probably scared of our anarchists because they would bomb stuff and they were well known for it too yeah SPEAKER_06: Yeah, so I mean this is not just the United States.Like all over the world, there were political radicals.There was violence from anarchy and riots.And like you said, people trying to take down like politicians or judges that were deporting at least the United States, deporting immigrant anarchists back to their home countries like as quickly as they could root them out basically. SPEAKER_04: Right, right. SPEAKER_06: So this is sort of the stage in the early 1920s. And I guess we should hop in the Wayback Machine. SPEAKER_04: Oh, yes, let's. SPEAKER_06: And head on over to Bastion Town.Okay.That's Boston, by the way. SPEAKER_04: Yeah, no, I know.It doesn't matter if I know.Just make sure the Wayback Machine knows what you're talking about.Oh, the Wayback Machine knows.It can read my silly accents. So here we are.It's 1920 around Boston.Actually, we're not in Boston proper.We're about 10 miles south in a little town of Braintree. SPEAKER_06: Yeah, which these days would be Boston proper.I mean, you know, more or less. SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's like the metro Boston area, right?And Braintree was known as a shoe manufacturing center.It had more than one shoe company, which meant it was a shoe manufacturing center.And on this particular day in April of 1920, I think it was April 15th, right?Correct. SPEAKER_06: Correct. SPEAKER_04: In Braintree, there was a dude named Shelly Neal who was an agent for the American Express Company.And the function I got of Shelly Neal was that he was kind of like a Brinks armed guard. SPEAKER_06: Yeah, like a courier for money. SPEAKER_04: And not just some money, like a lot of money. SPEAKER_06: Yeah. SPEAKER_04: On this day from the 918 a.m.train from Boston, Shelley Neal went to the Braintree train depot and picked up $30,000, 30 grand in cash, which is about $427,000 in 2018 money.Yeah, he did this every week. Right.He picked it up, and he took it back to his office, and he opened up a metal box, and inside it had two canvas bags, and each was the payroll for one of the two shoe companies that he picked up money for, one of which was called Slater & Murrell.I'm not sure what the other one was.Maybe it was 3K.Definitely Slater & Murrell was one of them. SPEAKER_06: The other was New Balance. SPEAKER_04: Okay.Yes.So Slater Emeril and New Balance were the ones whose payroll he had on him that day. SPEAKER_06: Yeah, and it's so amazing how that stuff used to work back then, like how payroll was just so lo-fi.It would literally be a huge amount of cash. Delivered in a box that he would take to an office and someone would sit there and stuff cash into envelopes to then go to like a factory to pay off employees.Not pay off, but to pay them their legit check from working.You didn't see nothing this week.This is for all the shoe leather. So that's how it worked back then.And so this is what he was doing.It's just like any other Thursday.However, on this day, as he went in, he noticed a car out front that he had not seen before, this big car that had like these little curtains on the inside windows. that were pulled shut.And other people in Braintree later on would report seeing that car kind of tooling around, and they said it looks like it's got like four or five men inside that look Italian.And they're just sort of driving around Braintree, which I guess to raise some suspicions... SPEAKER_04: Sure, because again, if you were Italian, you may have been associated with anarchists who were associated with bomb throwing.So four or five of them kind of aimlessly driving around the town of Braintree, this little tiny town, I'm sure aroused some suspicions and definitely did because there were a lot of people who later on said that they saw this car driving around between 9 a.m.and 12 p.m. SPEAKER_06: That's right.So about 3 that afternoon, here's what happened next for payroll.These people had to get these envelopes, so what's known as a paymaster.And this is also sort of part of the armed guard thing because the paymaster, A, has a gun and then has a guard with a gun.This guy's name was Freddy Parmenter, and the guard was Alessandro Berardelli. And so they stop by.They pick up all these envelopes.They're going down to the factory.They're going to pay everybody.And all of a sudden, bam, bam, bam, bam, gunfire and mayhem ensues. SPEAKER_04: I didn't realize there was going to be special effects in this episode.Hey, well, you know, I tried to bring it.So you did, man.It has been broughted. So these guys are on Pearl Street when these shots suddenly just ring out.And the first guy's hit.Berardelli's hit.And he goes down.I believe it was Berardelli who was hit first.Oh, no, he wasn't hit. It was Parmenter who was hit.Berardelli is on the ground, and he has lost his gun.And he's being approached by a man with a gun on him. And Berardelli apparently has begged for his life to no avail.The man shoots him in the chest at least once.And the bullet punctures his lungs, one of his major arteries to his heart, and then lodges itself in its hip to be fired. fished out later on by a coroner and used in the case against Sacco and Vanzetti.The other guy, Parman, or the paymaster, he gets hit a few times, staggers across the street, and collapses.And this car, a blue touring car, which is, you know, a big sedan that you would think of today, like a touring, we'll call it a Lincoln Town Car, even though that's not at all what it was.That blue car that had been seen kind of driving... Driving around.Right.Okay.That's another way to put it.It was a Buick.Yeah.But the same one that had been seen driving slowly around Braintree all morning suddenly pulls up and the guys who had shot these two men and taken the money, about $15,000, hopped in and it drove off and everyone lost sight of it. SPEAKER_06: Yeah, and very importantly, the man who shot Berardelli had a hat, a felt cap on.Right.So just remember that little fact.There were eyewitnesses all over the place.It's not like no one saw this happen.Like dozens of people saw this. SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it was a daring daylight robbery at 3 o'clock in the afternoon. SPEAKER_06: Daring do.Right.A man named Jimmy Bostock was one of the witnesses. Apparently, Berardelli like died in his arms and like all people in the 1920s didn't know any better.He immediately started messing with the crime scene, started picking up gun shells.Another guy came by and picked up the hat and, you know, they just didn't know any better at the time, I guess. SPEAKER_04: Right.So the crime scene has been totally messed up.But the cops show up because, again, this is a big deal.This is a small town and something close to $220,000 has just been stolen and two men murdered for it in this little tiny town.So it was a big deal.And the cops showed up and probably the first thing they said was anarchists.Maybe.Maybe. I'll bet that's kind of what they would say, I think, at the time. SPEAKER_06: Yeah.Should we take a break?Jeez, okay, already.Yeah, I think so.I mean, this falls into acts, and that's definitely act one. SPEAKER_08: Okay. SPEAKER_06: All right, so dead men in the street.The cops are on the scene.Message break.And scene. SPEAKER_03: Zigazoo has made me zigzag.What I mean by that is I swore I would never let my kids on social media, but now I'm setting them loose on Zigazoo.Before I found Zigazoo, I believed all social media was inappropriate for kids. 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SPEAKER_06: Maybe you've stayed in an Airbnb before and thought to yourself, this actually seems pretty doable.Maybe my place could be an Airbnb.It could be as simple as starting with a spare room or your whole place when you're away.You could be sitting on an Airbnb and not even know it.Maybe there's a big tournament in town and lots of fans will be visiting. You could Airbnb your home or extra room and make some extra money while people are in town.Whether you could use extra money to cover some bills or for something a little more fun, your home might be worth more than you think.Find out how much at Airbnb.com slash host. SPEAKER_04: Dell TechFest starts now.To thank you for 40 unforgettable years, Dell Technologies is celebrating with anniversary savings on their most popular tech for a limited time only.Save on select next-gen PCs like the XPS 13 Plus, where you can make the everyday easier with Windows 11.That's right. SPEAKER_06: You can unleash more possibilities with cutting-edge systems, the most advanced features, and great prices.Plus, curate your dream setup with deals on select monitors, mice, and more must-have electronics and accessories. SPEAKER_04: And when you shop online at dell.com slash deals, you'll have access to state-of-the-art technology to match your forward-thinking spirit and free shipping on everything. SPEAKER_06: That's right.Anniversary savings await you for a limited time only at dell.com slash deals.That's D-E-L-L dot com slash deals. SPEAKER_04: Is it and scene or end scene, Chuck? SPEAKER_06: We've talked about this a lot.And scene.So not end scene. SPEAKER_04: Nope.Because it makes sense, you know.You do end the scene. Right.By saying and seen.So the cops have shown up.They're investigating the place.They're not really finding anything aside from what the witnesses have already kind of gathered up and are now holding out to them in their outstretched palms.Like, here's your evidence, copper.Right. But the car is searched for all over and it's not found.It just totally disappears for a couple of days.And it turns up a couple of days later in the woods, I believe, south of Braintree in a place called Bridgewater, which is a little even further south from Boston.I think it's another like 10 or so miles down south from Braintree. SPEAKER_06: Right.I think Bridgewater only had seven Dunkin' Donuts, so it was a small town. SPEAKER_04: Right.And so remember when I said the cops were probably like anarchists?I knew it.There was another daylight robbery of payroll, and I found somewhere that it said it was successful.I found somewhere else that it was unsuccessful.But both of them agreed there had been no loss of life whatsoever.But it was similar enough, and it had happened like two years or a year before, it was similar enough that the cops— immediately thought of the people they'd been thinking of for this earlier crime.They thought this is clearly the work of the same people. SPEAKER_06: Yeah.And when they found this car in the woods, very importantly, the license plates had been ripped off and there were other tire tracks nearby.So it seemed pretty obvious that That, you know, they ditch this car, get in another one.The officer on the scene said, Marty, I think this is the car from the Braintree meta. SPEAKER_04: All I can think of is Jeremy Renner in the town.Sure.That's what I think of when I think Boston. SPEAKER_06: Yeah.Everyone thinks of that. SPEAKER_04: Sure. SPEAKER_06: So, yeah. Another thing's going on in parallel, so we need to set this up.Also, on April 15th, which is the day of those murders, there was a guy named Ferruccio Cocci. And he lived in Bridgewater.He was an anarchist.He was being deported.So he quits his job, you know, to be deported.Does not show up to be deported.He calls the immigration service after that on the 16th and said, you know, my wife is sick, so I have to tend to her. SPEAKER_04: We're going to get so much email about that. Am I going to get in trouble for that now?No, you won't get in trouble.Everybody loves your Italian accent.Please tell me you can still do an Italian accent, right?I think so.We're going to find out after this episode. SPEAKER_06: Because I'm just doing the accent.Sure.I'm not saying like they're all mobsters because like, you know, the Sopranos got in trouble for that.Oh, yeah. Did they say all Italians were mobsters?No, but, I mean, I remember there just being hey about from the Italian-American community, like, why is it every time in movies we're just mobsters? SPEAKER_04: Oh, I could see that, you know.Sure.I mean, I could see them, yeah.But these aren't even mobsters. SPEAKER_06: No, they're anarchists.Right.So he's being deported.He doesn't go.He calls them and says, my wife is sick.And they said, fine.We're going to check out your story, though.They found that his wife was not sick. And that all of a sudden he's saying, okay, it's fine, actually.I'm really ready to go, like, now. Yeah, come on, come on.Can you get me out of the country quickly?And they're like, well, you should probably, like, leave some money with your wife.He's like, no, no, no, she's good. SPEAKER_04: Let's just go. SPEAKER_06: Yeah, and so they're like, hmm, all right, this is a little odd.Maybe he's involved. SPEAKER_04: Can I paint the scene a little bit, though?I want to go back over and highlight two things that you've mentioned so far. SPEAKER_08: Sure. SPEAKER_04: One, this was a time where to cover up a crime, all you had to do was remove the license plates on the car you ditched.That was it.You just confounded the cops forever.Well, that helped.And then secondly— If you were to be deported, all you had to do was not show up but then call them the next day and say your wife was sick.And immigration and naturalization would say, sure, no problem. SPEAKER_06: Well, no, they investigated immediately. SPEAKER_04: Okay.But I'm just saying, like, this is – things have changed a tad, I think, is what I'm trying to say.Hold on.Let me see.Josh, what are you trying to say?Are you trying to say that?Yeah, I'm trying to say that.Okay, cool.Yes, that's exactly what I'm trying to say.Okay. SPEAKER_06: It's weird because you looked on both of your shoulders at the devil and the angel. SPEAKER_04: But they won't shut up, Chuck. SPEAKER_06: So they summarize, you know, it's all coming together.This guy's acting weird.This is on the 16th. SPEAKER_04: He's also, Chuck, one of those people that they liked for that robbery the year before, which is one of the reasons why they had their antenna up about this guy in the first place. SPEAKER_06: Right.So he's a suspect.The cops go to specifically Michael Stewart, police chief, said, I'm going to go back to his house.I'm going to see what else I can find out from this guy.He shows up, and there's a dude there named Mike Boda.He says, yeah, sure, you can look around.You can look in the house.Go back and look in the garage.It's a two-car garage shed.No problem. I usually have my car there.It's in Overland, but it's in the shop getting repaired.And Stuart goes out there and it's like, all right, so here's where the Overland parks.But there's some really big tire tracks next to the Overland and the second stall that look like they would probably fit this large Buick that was so mysteriously kind of tooling around around the time of this murder.Yeah. SPEAKER_04: Right.And this cop, Stewart, goes, hmm, I'm going to make a mental note of that.And that's what he did.He asked about the other car.I don't know if you said Boda said that his other car was at the garage being repaired.Correct. So, Stuart, who's the police chief of Bridgewater, I think I get the impression that he's kind of new.There was another one who kind of factors into this case tangentially later on, who is the former police chief.So, I get the impression that Michael Stuart was fairly new.But he's investigating this case. He likes Koachi.He's now met Mike Boda, who he's suspicious of, too. He goes back to talk to Boda some more, to this place where Koachi lived as Boda's roommate, I guess away from his wife and kids.I'm not sure why Koachi was renting this place.Are we going with Koachi now? Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's it.I took Italian in college, and I'm almost 100% sure it's Koachi.Okay.Do you remember from our dyslexia episode where Italian is extremely easy to learn because there's just very few ways to write things, to write the phonemes?One of the reasons it is easy is because it's kind of like Polish. In most cases, it's actually easier than Polish, but it's pronounced just like it's spelled, except for the C-I is a ch sound. SPEAKER_06: Okay. SPEAKER_04: So, koachi. SPEAKER_08: Okay. SPEAKER_04: Okay?All right.That was your Italian lesson.I appreciate that.After all these years.The other lesson, Chuck, not all Italians or Italian-Americans are mobsters.That's your other Italian lesson.No.Okay. I've known a bunch of Italian Americans, and none of them were mobsters. Bam.There you go.So, Police Chief Stewart goes back to talk to Boda, and things get really suspicious, too, don't they?Because he shows up and knocks on the door, and the door just swings open onto an empty apartment.Right. And Stewart spends about 15 minutes going, Boda?Mr. Boda?Hello, Mr. Boda?And he finally takes a couple steps in and realizes Boda's gone. SPEAKER_06: That's right.So he goes by the garage where the guy said that his car was in the shop, goes over there.The car's still there, so that checked out.And he told the owner, whose name was Simon Johnson, he said, hey, if anyone comes to get this car, just give us a call.And the guy says, mental note, Boda. call co-ops if someone comes to get this car. SPEAKER_04: Jeremy Renner. SPEAKER_06: So on May 5th, this is what, a couple of weeks later, a man comes to the door, and this is at, I believe this is, it says 9 o'clock, but that's at night, right? SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I couldn't tell at first, and then... It feels like night.Yeah, it says also that the wife is illuminated by a motorcycle headlight.Oh, well, there you have it.So I would guess at night, yeah. SPEAKER_06: All right, so unless it's very dark in the morning. SPEAKER_04: Right. SPEAKER_06: So at 9 o'clock at night, this guy shows up to the owners of the garage's door, knocks on the door. His young wife answers.The guy says that he's Mike Boda.I'm here to pick up my car, that Overland over there.And the owner of the garage comes and tells his wife, and he says, go call the police.You know, we don't have a phone.Go next door, call the cops.She leaves out the back door and is caught, like you said, there's this motorcycle sitting outside.She also sees, with a sidecar, also sees a couple of guys that she said were speaking Italian kind of hanging around. So it's all sort of adding up at this point to something fishy. SPEAKER_04: Yeah.So I guess the fact that Simon Johnson, the shop owner, the mechanic, was stalling made Boda a little uneasy.Sure.So he took off without the car, right?Yeah. SPEAKER_06: Yeah, he jumped in the sidecar and was out of there. SPEAKER_04: Okay, here's where things get super critical for a pair of guys named Sacco and Vanzetti.There were two other, those two other guys that Ruth Johnson, Simon Johnson, the mechanic's wife, said she saw. hanging out, waiting for Mike Boda to get his car, they split too.Now they're suddenly like on foot.There's no motorcycle or car for them.So they have to leave on foot.So they walk over toward the direction of the Bridgewater Rail line.And she says that she saw them get on the train or at least go toward the train station. Or no, the rail car.So I think it might have been like a streetcar kind of thing. SPEAKER_08: Yeah. SPEAKER_04: So somehow Chief Stewart gets word of this.I think he shows up.He gets word of this.And he calls the police chief in the next town over in Brockton and says, hey, there's going to be a pair of Italian guys on the streetcar.When the streetcar stops or the rail car stops in your town, get them.They are wanted for work. questioning in a murder robbery.And so the Brockton police board the train when it arrives in Brockton.And there are two Italian men sitting there.And the two men's names were Nicola Sacco and Bartolomeo Vanzetti. And they just happened to be Italian.And they just happened to be anarchists.And they both happened to be strapped when the cops came on the rail car and started asking them questions. SPEAKER_06: Yeah, Sacco had a 32 Colt and Van City had a 38 Harrington and Richardson, which very uniquely had five chambers instead of six.It's very unusual. SPEAKER_04: Seems unique, yeah. SPEAKER_06: Yeah, I don't even know how that works.I would have to see this kind of revolver because six is a nice even number for a round thing.I don't get it, but regardless. SPEAKER_04: Yeah, no one ever says, like, don't point that five-shooter at me.It's always six-shooter, you know?Yeah, that's weird.Although maybe a five-shooter is what they're talking about when they call it a pea-shooter. SPEAKER_06: No, that's not what they mean.But it was the 1920s, and there were all kinds of weird guns back then. SPEAKER_04: Right, okay, so these two Italian immigrants who were anarchists and who were carrying guns had one other big problem.They were giving some pretty weak and ever-evolving stories in answer to the questions that the cops were asking them.They get hauled into the police station, I believe in Bridgewater or Braintree.Do you know which one it was?I think it was Braintree, actually.They got taken to Braintree because it was Stewart who was investigating them. So they get taken to Braintree and Police Chief Stewart questions them.But then so too does the chief prosecutor for the area, a guy named Frederick Katzman, who would play an enormous role in this case as well. SPEAKER_06: Yeah, so he was the DA, and I think the key fact that really sold him was he found out that on April 15th, on the day of these murders, Saka was not at work at the 3K shoe factory. SPEAKER_04: Right. SPEAKER_06: And he said, you know what?That's enough for me.We have no real evidence or anything else, but you are Italian-American anarchists.You weren't at work that day, so let's go ahead and haul you in here. SPEAKER_04: Right.Because, yeah, we left off the fact that they found like anarchist pamphlets on the men when they took them off the train.So there was a lot against them, going against them at this point, just from the outset of this.But you kind of touched on it.All of this is very, very circumstantial. SPEAKER_06: Yeah, so right away, the anarchists of the area come on board.They form the Saco-Vincetti Defense Committee.And one of their leaders, one of the anarchist leaders in the area named Carlo Tresca said, all right, let's hire this lawyer from California.This guy's a radical.He's going to lead our defense.And Moore comes on board.Fred Moore is like, here's the way we're going to do this is let's like – Let's get everyone worked up, like not only in this area, but all over the world.Let's get radicals and let's get anarchists and let's get union members.Let's paint these guys as just like hardworking blue collar union dudes. And let's get people all over the world paying attention to what's going on over here. SPEAKER_04: Yes, which is a very common tactic still in use today.Just turn public sentiment against the government and the prosecutors in their case and basically paint it like Sacco and Vanzetti were just a couple of normal dudes who were being railroaded for political reasons and probably out of a certain amount of xenophobia as well. SPEAKER_06: Sure.So let's take a break.The trial opens in May of 1921 with Judge Webster Thayer.And we'll be back with what happens next right after this. SPEAKER_00: Hey, Sarah, I love that spring break vlog you posted on Zigazoo.OMG, you watched it?Yeah, it was edited so well.I think you're so talented. SPEAKER_03: Social media interactions are only positive when you use Zigazoo.Zigazoo is the world's largest and safest social media network for kids.Your kids can upload their content and see what their friends are up to. With Zigazoo, they can create videos, enter to win prizes, and try out the latest dances and trends.There's no commenting, no text messaging, and everything is 100% human-moderated.Plus, all community members are real, verified kids just like yours.There are no bots, trolls, or AI.Because Zigazoo is about one thing and one thing only, and that is fun. Try out Zigazoo this spring break and let your kids share your vacation vlogs and best edits with their friends safely.Download the Zigazoo app today. That's Z-I-G-A-Z-O-O. SPEAKER_06: Maybe you've stayed in an Airbnb before and thought to yourself, this actually seems pretty doable.Maybe my place could be an Airbnb.It could be as simple as starting with a spare room or your whole place when you're away.You could be sitting on an Airbnb and not even know it.Maybe there's a big tournament in town and lots of fans will be visiting. You could Airbnb your home or extra room and make some extra money while people are in town.Whether you could use extra money to cover some bills or for something a little more fun, your home might be worth more than you think.Find out how much at Airbnb.com slash host. SPEAKER_04: Dell TechFest starts now.To thank you for 40 unforgettable years, Dell Technologies is celebrating with anniversary savings on their most popular tech for a limited time only.Save on select next-gen PCs like the XPS 13 Plus, where you can make the everyday easier with Windows 11.That's right. SPEAKER_06: You can unleash more possibilities with cutting-edge systems, the most advanced features, and great prices.Plus, curate your dream setup with deals on select monitors, mice, and more must-have electronics and accessories. SPEAKER_04: And when you shop online at dell.com slash deals, you'll have access to state-of-the-art technology to match your forward-thinking spirit and free shipping on everything. SPEAKER_06: That's right.Anniversary savings await you for a limited time only at dell.com slash deals.That's D-E-L-L dot com slash deals. SPEAKER_04: Chuck, before we get back into it, I want to give a shout-out to Doug Linder, Douglas Linder, who's a law professor and historian who wrote a paper that we used as a source that was pretty handy, pretty good stuff. SPEAKER_06: Yeah, law professors, I mean, there's a lot of good information out here on this, but you get a law professor on the typewriter, and they're going to condense it into a nice, readable, workable document. SPEAKER_04: That's right. SPEAKER_06: That's what they do.They're very good at that. Yes.So, all right, trial's underway.Like I said before, Judge Webster Thayer proceeds over this trial.Katzman, that's the DA that's prosecuting, he has got a lot of circumstantial evidence.He has eyewitnesses, but not really a lot of hard evidence going on. SPEAKER_04: Right. SPEAKER_06: It's sort of a tough case for him to, like, solidly prove.Yeah. SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and that was another reason why Fred Moore was able to run around drumming up public sentiment, not just in the United States or even just Boston or Massachusetts, but around the world, that Sacco and Vanzetti were being railroaded is that the evidence against them was really, really weak.The eyewitness testimony was super... If you had the luxury like historians like Douglas Linder have had to compare, you know, the original notes or the original statements made by eyewitnesses against the types of statements they made in court. The statements they made in court were much more certain, much more sure.And this was after a year of reading the newspaper and being exposed to pictures of Sacco and Vanzetti.So when they see Sacco and Vanzetti in the courtroom, they're like, yes, I saw that man holding that gun, and he was the one that pulled the trigger.The thing is, there was not one witness... But there were witnesses who placed both of them at the crime scene, or at least in the Buick around town on that day.But there was not one single witness who placed both of them there.That's just the eyewitnesses. They also had—the other big piece of circumstantial evidence were the guns that they were found with.And they used ballistic experts to come in and say, yes, this bullet came from this gun.But again, looking at it with history, the benefit of history— This was at a time when ballistics comparison was just beginning to come around.And the people that they employed as ballistics experts were self-taught amateurs who just basically had an interest in this field, were in no way, shape, or form genuine experts because you could make a case there was no such thing as a genuine ballistics comparison expert at the time.It was too new as far as forensic goes. SPEAKER_06: Yeah, so on the defense side, immediately they say those guys weren't even in Braintree.Saka was in Boston.Vanzetti was in Plymouth.Both sides, it's interesting to look back on this trial because both the prosecution and the defense were, like, being very hinky with the truth themselves, influencing people on both sides to testify kind of behind the scenes.Yeah. Fred Moore, the defense attorney, trotted out a bunch of witnesses that say, no, like Vanzetti was definitely in Plymouth.He's a fishmonger, bought fish from him.And then later on, it was found out that some of these people, well, all of them basically were friends of his.And then some of the people came out even later and said, yeah, he kind of told me to say this.But that happened on the prosecution side, too. SPEAKER_04: Yes.Supposedly later on, they would allege that the prosecutor Katzmann and the chief or the lead ballistics or the star ballistics witness had kind of coordinated the answer that the ballistics witness would give at trial and that it would be much more stronger and much more. much more certain than the actual conclusion he came to prior to the trial based on his original ballistics tests. SPEAKER_06: Yeah, so there's hinkiness on both sides.Katzman has this hat.And remember, one of the gunmen definitely had on a gray cap.So he has this gray cap.He said, this is Sacco's.He gets together with an expert behind the scenes and says, and again with this, like you were saying, sort of the beginnings of not ballistics in this case, but just... Forensics.Any kind of forensics, yeah.He... looked at the hairs in the hat, got a hair from Sacco, and Sacco was like, ow, that hurt.And he compared them, and he said, yeah, these hairs are identical. I'm telling you, they're the same hairs.But Katzman was like, you know what?I don't want to go to court and present this because this stuff is all new.They're going to paint you as unreliable because no one knows anything about hair comparison yet. So instead of doing that, he goes to the boss of the shoe factory, George Kelly, and was like, have you seen this hat before?And Kelly said, yes, that's Sacco's hat.I've seen him wear that hat, and the hole in it is from the nail that he hangs it on every day when, in fact, that was definitely not the case. SPEAKER_04: No, the previous police chief later testified that he had accidentally punched the hole in the hat while he was examining it for any kind of identifying marks.Which is weird.He also testified that the hat had a very questionable provenance, that it hadn't come into police custody for 30 hours after the crime. So he couldn't say, as far as he knew, it was not found at the crime scene, that it hadn't been secured by the police.He didn't know exactly where it came from.And then finally, I read elsewhere, in a final twist, and stop me if this sounds familiar, but they asked Sacco to put the hat on in court, and it was too small for his head.It didn't fit.You must acquit.They did not acquit, though. Well, you just ruined it. Oh, I'm sorry.That's okay.Sorry, everybody.It's funny.There's probably a lot of people out there who have no idea how this is going to turn out because if you search on Google just Sacco and Vanzetti, one of the suggested questions is, what is Sacco and Vanzetti?Not who.What?It's a nice aperitif. SPEAKER_06: Right.So I don't know if we mentioned, but like Sacco had – Definitely much more evidence against him, even if it was circumstantial, than Vanzetti did. SPEAKER_04: A lot more eyewitnesses, yeah. SPEAKER_06: For sure.So Vanzetti has the thinnest case against him.But he lied to the cops.He had that gun, remember?And on the stand, he said, yeah, actually, I got that gun just a few days ago.I bought it for four or five bucks.And they were like, well, you told us. that you bought it four or five years ago for $18.Right.You said there were six chambers in it and only had five. And what's going on here?You're lying to me, Vanzetti. SPEAKER_04: The whole thing with the gun, I don't know if we've said it or not yet.The reason why the gun was so suspicious and was basically like the central piece of evidence used against Vanzetti is that it was supposedly the exact same kind of gun that Alessandro Berardelli had on him when he was killed. So the whole idea was that Vanzetti had been at least at the crime scene, if not one of the killers, who had taken Berardelli's gun after he had killed him and made off with it, which would explain why he wasn't very familiar with the gun and how many chambers it had and didn't have a very solid story about where he'd gotten it and how long he'd owned it, too. That was the implication of the whole thing.And that was basically the, that was it.That was the crux of the prosecution's case against Vanzetti.Vanzetti's big problem was he was sitting next to Sacco when Sacco got taken off the train and they had a lot more on Sacco and they were tried together rather than separately. SPEAKER_06: Yeah, in Saco, that ballistics evidence made a big, big difference in the trial because they found out for sure that that bullet that killed Berardelli was definitely fired from a Colt automatic.And your Colt automatic is what they alleged.Right.And – well, we'll hold on to that last bit until later.But – about what was found out later about that.But I think even some of the jurors said that that was really some of the most compelling evidence against Sacco for us in deciding this case. SPEAKER_04: Yeah.And again, like they're listening to forensic evidence from a field that's still in the very in its cradle from testimony given by people who are not experts.But that was like you said, the jurors said this was that was it for me.That was what convinced me was the ballistics evidence, basically. SPEAKER_06: So they go to a jury and they go to deliberations.And just five and a half hours later, the jury said guilty as charged. SPEAKER_04: About six weeks after the trial started, I believe. SPEAKER_06: Yeah.So it was a big deal, you know, like Sacco's crying out, I'm innocent and Italian in the court.Yeah. there were like protests all over the world, like South America, France, Lisbon.It's just crazy how much this at the time in the 1920s became an international thing.And basically they were due for the electric chair.So people all over the world were protesting.There were bombings.It was nuts. SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I mean, this is a time when labor was unionized.So you could arouse the sympathy of a lot of people at once by going to the union hall and saying like, hey, your brothers in arms over there in America are being railroaded into a murder rap.They're going to be electrocuted in the electric chair for something they didn't commit simply because of their political beliefs.How messed up is that?And you could arouse some people pretty quickly back then by saying that, as opposed to today.Yeah. SPEAKER_06: Yeah, for sure.Moore immediately starts, the defense attorney immediately starts filing motions, trying to get like new trials.He had an assistant named Eugene Lyons who later would come out and say, man, like this guy basically would do anything.He was framing evidence.He was telling witnesses what to say.Like once he had it up in his mind, And keep in mind, this was like a radical lawyer from California.He said once he had in mind that these guys were innocent, he was like he basically would do anything to try and get them off. SPEAKER_04: Yeah, he'd suborn perjury, he'd intimidate witnesses, he'd do whatever.If he thought that somebody was being innocently prosecuted, Fred Moore would stop at nothing to, yeah, to get them off.And this article, I think, kind of paints an incomplete picture of Eugene Lyons and Fred Moore's relationship.Like, Eugene Lyons was also very much an admirer of Fred Moore, too.Like, he considered Fred Moore to have the heart of an artist.But he was... He had dedicated his life to... Getting people who are being steamrolled by the system or unfairly treated by the courts out from under these charges.He was an early civil liberties lawyer, basically, is what he was. SPEAKER_06: Yeah, so none of these motions work.He files a bunch of them.We're not going to detail them all, but none of them worked.They were basically all turned down.Thayer was still the presiding judge.He was turning down all these things.Then they went to, like, federal court.They were turning down motions.Eventually they went to the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court was like, why are you asking us about this?Like, this is a state case. Like, we don't even do this kind of thing. SPEAKER_04: Yeah, the court at the time was very much against or the majority, I should say, was against applying the federal constitution to state issues so they wouldn't get involved.But I mean, it did go all the way to at least petitioning the Supreme Court.They wouldn't hear it and they wouldn't stay the execution either.But he as much as a lawyer can exhaust petitions and appeals for clemency and the stay of execution.Fred Moore did.And then later on, another defense lawyer named William Thompson, who took over for Fred Moore after Sacco fired Fred Moore, did the same thing.Like up to the eve, the eve of the execution, they were relentless in filing appeals with anything, anything they could get their hands on.They filed an entire motion for a new trial immediately. based strictly on Judge Thayer's perceived prejudice against anarchists. Apparently he did not like anarchists, and he treated Sacco and Vanzetti as such throughout the trial.And if you're just watching this from the outside, if you're reading about this in the press, and you're already on Sacco and Vanzetti's side, Judge Thayer turning down motion after motion after motion after motion looks really bad.It looks very much like this judge is bent on railroading these two immigrant anarchists into an early and unjust death by electric chair.So the public's sympathies were aroused even further for Sacco and Vanzitti.And that would last for decades after this trial, a century almost now. SPEAKER_06: Yeah, so Sacco's in jail, and another weird thing happens while he's in jail in Dedham, D-E-D-H-A-M.There was another prisoner there who passed a note on and said, basically, I'm confessing to this crime.My name is Celestino Medeiros. And they were like, all right, well, let's talk to this guy.He's confessing to this crime and saying that Sacco and Vincetti are innocent.He said, I was there.I was with four other guys.So that kind of checks out as far as the five Italians.He said, we met in Providence at a bar. And we just came up with this plan. He said there was a guy named Mike, a guy named Bill.I don't know the other guys.I was scared.We switched cars in the woods.Like all this stuff was sort of making sense.But it really didn't like – in the end – There were too many other things that were wrong.Like he said that they didn't get there till afternoon and everyone was like, no, that car was there like maybe between 9 a.m.and noon.He also said that the payroll money was in a bag when it was in a metal box. And so there were enough inconsistencies basically where – He wasn't really a major suspect.Like, they considered it, Thompson tried to use it as the basis for a new trial, but none of this worked because Thayer was still kind of calling the shots.This was before they ran it up the flagpole. SPEAKER_04: Yeah.But again, news made its way out into the international press that someone had confessed and not only confessed, said that Sacco and Vanzetti weren't there.And this judge who had it out for Sacco and Vanzetti refused to even hear this motion to have a new trial.So it looked bad as well, too. SPEAKER_06: It did.So it looked bad enough that the governor at the time, Alvin Fuller, said, you know what?We have to do something here.There's just too much public pressure going on from around the world.He said, so here's what we'll do.We'll get a three-person advisory committee.They're going to investigate this.He said, hey, you, Lawrence Lowell, you're the president of Harvard.You had this thing up.And then what was known as the Lowell Commission finally issued a report, which – said basically, beyond a reasonable doubt, Sacco is guilty.And Vanzetti said, on the whole, it's our opinion that he's also guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.And everyone was like, well, why did you say all those other words then? SPEAKER_04: And they're like, what other words? SPEAKER_06: Yeah, really kind of a strange final report. SPEAKER_04: What's funny is in the Boston area, if they're like, we need somebody smart, get me the president of Harvard. SPEAKER_06: Well, yeah, and in the end, he's like, you are definitely guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, and so are you, more or less, in our opinion. SPEAKER_04: Right, no, I know, it was weird, and it remains weird, but apparently years later, when Lowell was asked about that, he was saying, like, no, that wasn't an indication that we thought Vanzitti had any kind of innocence to him or that he wasn't guilty.I'm not sure exactly how he explained it, but he basically said, no, that's not what that was. SPEAKER_06: Oh, interesting. SPEAKER_04: I don't know what he thought it was.There was a weird way to put it, but that was, I think the other thing that kind of arouses people's interest in that or suspicion maybe even is that that's what a lot of people think, that Sacco was definitely guilty. SPEAKER_08: Yeah. SPEAKER_04: I shouldn't say a lot, but some people, that Sacco was definitely guilty.And if anyone was innocent, it was Vanzetti.So the idea that this Lowell Commission came up with this back in the 20s even is significant.But yeah, Lowell was like, no, that's not what we meant by that. SPEAKER_06: So none of these stays of execution go through.So they are reunited.They were split up in jail for many, many years, six years.And then they were finally reunited at Charlestown State Prison for execution in April.And they had like – You wouldn't believe how many cops they have in this town to cover this thing because it was sort of one of the first crimes of the century, I think.And people were mad all over the country and all over the world like we've been talking about.They didn't know if there were going to be more bombings. People were going to, like, literally storm the prison and try and overtake them and free them.So they had tons and tons of cops everywhere. Sacco is first to go.And as they are strapping him in, he's crying out in Italian, long live anarchy.And then in English, very quietly, he says, farewell, my wife and child and all my friends.And right when they finally threw the switch, he screamed out, mama. And I don't think like that. SPEAKER_04: No, no. SPEAKER_06: I'm not making light of it.I don't think he was like, whoa, mama. SPEAKER_04: No, I don't think so either.I think he was calling for his mother.Yes.Which is pretty sad.Right.But also kind of sweet.Yes.And then Vanzetti comes in and he's like, oh, it's my turn, huh?All right.Well, okay. I want to make sure everybody knows that I am innocent.So I think it's significant that Sacco was the one that shouted in the courtroom that he was innocent. but didn't during his execution.And Vanzetti didn't say anything in the courtroom, but during his execution, he's like, I'm innocent.And not only that, he really turned the screwdriver.He said, I want to make it known that I forgive all of you who are about to do this to me. SPEAKER_06: And he started crying. SPEAKER_04: Well, the warden started crying when he gave the switch, he gave the nod to throw the switch on the electric chair and kill Vanzetti. SPEAKER_06: Tears flowing everywhere.High drama.Yeah. SPEAKER_04: Yes.I'm surprised.Has this been a movie?Surely it has been, but I'll bet it was in like the 70s or something.We just aren't aware of it.Like Warren Beatty played Socko and Vanzetti in some weird casting. SPEAKER_06: And somehow Jeremy Renner played all the cops. SPEAKER_04: Right, exactly.It's a very strange movie.So Sacco and Vanzetti are dead.Like, they're dead.The state took their lives.They executed them.These conceivably innocent men who were railroaded to the electric chair on circumstantial evidence and the testimony of some ballistic experts who were not experts by anyone's measure.These men are now dead, and the world reacts predictably.There were riots. Six people died in a riot in Germany.The American embassy in Paris had already been bombed, so they brought tanks out on the night of the execution and surrounded it this time, and there were no bombings.There were riots in Geneva, Switzerland. This may have been the only time anyone ever rioted in Geneva, Switzerland.There were like 5,000 protesters who destroyed everything that was even passingly American.And Sacco and Vanzetti went into the history books as a couple of innocent men who were executed wrongfully by the state because of their political beliefs.They were political prisoners who were executed for their beliefs, basically, is how most people have come to see Sacco and Vanzetti. SPEAKER_06: Yeah, but many years later a couple of – a few notable things happened.In 1941, that gentleman I mentioned earlier, Carlo Tresca, the anarchist leader, a couple of years before he died in the 1940s, basically said, you know what? Sacco was guilty.He was a trigger man, but Vanzetti was not guilty.Other people had heard this same thing from Tresca.And then in 1961, they had actual ballistics tests done, and it was concluded that that was, in fact, a bullet from Sacco's gun, but people still were saying, no, you know what, I think that bullet was planted, so we render that inconclusive. SPEAKER_04: But I think Doug Linder does a pretty good job of taking the planted bullet theory, fatal bullet or bullet number three is what it's called in the trial, and basically saying, no, this is why that doesn't really hold up.And probably the biggest one is... When those ballistics witnesses gave their testimony, both of the prosecution's star ballistic witnesses said, yes, I would conclude probably that it came out of this gun or it's probable or possible or something like that.They couched their expert opinions when they gave their testimony. And if they were part of a conspiracy to frame Sacco in the planting of this bullet, they would have given much more forceful testimony, which in and of itself is circumstantial evidence against this planted bullet theory.But it draws so closely on common sense that I think it makes sense to me.It undermines the idea that the bullet was planted. SPEAKER_06: Yeah, there was another gentleman named Giovanni Gamberra who said, you know what, my dad, before he died in 1982, he told me he was on this team of anarchists that met after their arrest to get their defense mounted. And he told me, and everyone said basically that Sacco was guilty and Vanzetti was innocent.And then weirdly, in 2005, Upton Sinclair, the very famous author, said that he was researching a book and he was writing a book about this whole thing.And he met with Fred Moore, the radical defense attorney that mounted the defense for basically most of the case. And he said he met with him in a hotel room and was like, dude, give me the real story.And he said that Moore told him, yeah, Sacco was guilty and Vansetti was innocent.And I basically came up with this whole defense on my own, like made all this stuff up. SPEAKER_04: Yeah.Yeah.Years later, it came out that the seven eyewitnesses for the defense who said that they saw Sacco eating lunch in Boston at the time of the robbery in Braintree had all been set up by the defense. or at least by an anarchist group who had asked them to go perjure themselves.And, yeah, I think that kind of jives with the Eugene Lyons quote that, like, if he thought these guys were innocent, he would do anything to get them off, including, you know, putting witnesses on the stand knowing that they were going to lie and telling them to lie. And this was a letter from Upton Sinclair based on an interview with Fred Moore.So it has a lot of teeth.But the thing – there was another letter from Upton Sinclair, another quote from Upton Sinclair, where he said that – Fred Moore had confessed to him that Vanzetti was innocent, and he knew he was innocent, but he was pretty sure Sacco wasn't.But all he had to do was go to the jury and say, hey, we all know that you don't have anything on Vanzetti. There's no reason for you to prosecute this man. But he knew that if he did that, the jury would be like, well, you're probably right, but we're going to come down really hard on Sacco.So he had this dilemma, and he took it to Vanzetti, he said.And Vanzetti said, you know what?Try to save Nick, Nicholas Sacco.He has the wife.He has the child.I don't.Try to get him off.So Vanzetti, in this retelling by Fred Moore, gave his life on the chance that – that Fred Moore could get Sacco off.Because if he got Sacco off, he'd get Vanzetti off.If he got Vanzetti off, he would almost surely sink Sacco.And Vanzetti wouldn't take the opportunity to be acquitted at the expense of Sacco, which is pretty amazing. SPEAKER_06: Amazing. SPEAKER_04: Yep.So that's Sacco and Vanzetti, everybody.That's what a Sacco and Vanzetti is.Now you know. SPEAKER_06: I guess one guilty and one innocent. SPEAKER_04: That's what it sounds like.That's what it sounds like. If you want to know more about Sacco and Vanzetti, go look up Doug Linder.I believe he has a whole site on true crime.And there's plenty of other stuff out there that we found, too, on the Internet about Sacco and Vanzetti and their famous trial.And since I said Sacco and Vanzetti like 80 times, it's time for listener mail. SPEAKER_06: I'm going to call this response to a short stuff.All right.Hey, guys, your show is one of my favorite podcasts, so much so that I've taken to listening to it while I get ready for work. Whoa.We know that is your sacred time. SPEAKER_08: Yeah. SPEAKER_06: Nadine.I just finished the episode on Black Loyalists and immediately started to write the email.I'm a Rhode Islander in Nova Scotia for work and got so excited to hear a little piece of Nova Scotia's history on there.I looked into the Loyalist Heritage Museum, but it only has weekday operations, so I don't think I'll be able to make it there.I'll definitely do some exploring of Halifax, though, in the coming weeks, and will be on the lookout for more information.I just wanted to mention on the show... Josh said that Rhode Island may not have ever had slaves.Actually, we were the first state to abolish slavery in 1652, but the law was mostly ignored, and we ended up with the most slaves per capita of any colony. SPEAKER_04: I did not know that. SPEAKER_06: We also had a pretty booming slave trade in Newport, Rhode Island. now known for their gilded-aged splendor, a piece of Rhode Island history I'm sure most don't learn in history class that I wanted to shed light on.Thanks for always putting out a funny and informative and entertaining show.That is from Nadine Grieg. SPEAKER_04: Thanks a lot, Nadine.That was great.Thanks for listening while you get ready for work.Hope work's going well up there in Nova Scotia.Just think spring to you and everybody up there in Nova Scotia, frankly. If you want to get in touch with us, you can join us on stuffyoushouldknow.com.Check out our social links there.And you can just send us a good old-fashioned email.Wrap it up, spank it on the bottom, and send it off to stuffpodcasts at howstuffworks.com. SPEAKER_02: Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 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