Selects: The Science of Break-Ups

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Hey, everybody, it's Josh.And for this week's Select, I've chosen our 2019 episode on the science of breakups.It's just a straight ahead, interesting episode about people and what makes us tick.I hope you enjoy it. SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. SPEAKER_05: Hey, and welcome to the podcast.I'm Josh Clark.There's Charles W. Chuck Bryan over there.There's Jerry.Rush, rush, rush, Jerry.This is W. Chanel.The breakup edition. SPEAKER_06: Three people who have never broken up with one another.No, that's true.The last three.Great point.Modern triad.Yeah. SPEAKER_05: The triad. SPEAKER_06: So I picked this one out because mainly... This is a refrain we get in the email a lot.We hear from heartbroken people a lot. SPEAKER_05: Sure. SPEAKER_06: More than you would think that are just like, I'm so sad.Lots of broken hearts out there.And you guys have helped me with this show as a distraction, which we will learn is one of the official ways to get over a breakup. SPEAKER_05: Yeah, look over here. SPEAKER_06: Yeah, exactly.So it just got me thinking about, like, is there any science behind breakups and the emotions that go along with it? It turns out there's a lot, like a disturbing amount of study has been done.I know.When you look at it, you're like, oh, man, maybe you should have allocated that money toward research toward other things. SPEAKER_05: Yeah, like cancer.Yeah.Although social psychology couldn't do anything about cancer. SPEAKER_06: No, and it's, you know, it's not like they're like, oh, well, we'll just, it's all taken from one big pool.We'll just allocate some of this breakup money toward cancer research.Sure.It's not how it works. SPEAKER_05: Well, you could allocate the money, but the mental energy, I guess, is what I'm talking about. SPEAKER_06: Yeah, but this, those just, it seemed like study after study.And also, we should point out too that I think there was one case in here of one study where they looked at homosexual couples.But most of this study is like cisgendered straight couples. SPEAKER_08: Yeah. SPEAKER_06: Through that lens only.They're not doing a ton of research outside that. SPEAKER_05: I found one that tracks – it correlates the likelihood of breaking up to time.And they had it broken out by same-sex and straight, married and unmarried.Those were like the four categories.Gotcha. So some people are doing it.Sure.But, yeah, for the most part, no.And I think one of the reasons why, Chuck, is a lot of this is from the mid-2000s, early 2010s.Yeah.And that was, you know, that was about the last, like the tail end of that. Now I think it's starting to change, fortunately.Right.Because people of all genders and sexual orientation break up and get dumped.And we're here to help all of you. So buckle in, grab a hanky, and let's get through this. SPEAKER_06: Yeah, I mean, we should go ahead and start out by saying, I guess, that in theory, more people are breaking up now because people are generally waiting longer to get married.Right.So if you could extrapolate that, if you're not married for 10 more years than, let's say, our parents were, then maybe you've gone through a couple more breakups along the way. SPEAKER_05: Yeah, we should give a shout out to Kristen Conger of Unladylike Media.Yeah, Congs.Who wrote this article.Our old pal.She points out that that typically means that you are going to find somebody who you work with rather than rushing into it.But it also, as she puts it, like leaves the window open longer for heartbreak to be dumped.Yeah.One thing I saw, Chuck, this is mind boggling to me. 85% of people, according to this one study, will be dumped in their lifetime, will experience being a breakup in their lifetime.That means 15% of humanity won't. Those are some interesting people. SPEAKER_06: 15% have not had a breakup or been broken up with? SPEAKER_05: Will not in their lifetime.They're just going to either never have a relationship or the first time they're going to hit it out of the park. But that doesn't mean, like, I've never been dumped. SPEAKER_06: Yeah.Like, they'll never have gone through a breakup.But I've been through breakups.I've been the dumper. SPEAKER_05: Right.I know what you're saying.No, I believe that they will not have experience to break up in their lifetime, either way.Well, that's great. SPEAKER_06: That means they met the person that they love when they're young, probably. SPEAKER_05: Again, or it means that they decided to live their life alone, which is fine. Right.Or... Or both.Like I said, they decided, like, yeah, I'm just going to stick with this person.Yeah.I don't want to ruin my record, my spotless record. SPEAKER_06: I think it's very interesting here that supposedly... And this is very hinky, how they found this out about the spikes and breakups from like... That's a Facebook data poll.Social media. SPEAKER_05: That doesn't count, social psychology.Doesn't count. SPEAKER_06: I agree, but it does make a little bit of sense, and I can see this being true, that generally dumping someone or getting broken up with can happen on any day of the year, but there are spikes in early December and early March because of... Christmas holidays and spring break. SPEAKER_05: Yeah.And technically I could see that being true.There has, I'm sure it's true, at least on Facebook.And yeah, this is a pretty big data pool, but it's like, that's so lazy. SPEAKER_06: It's lazy, but I could see it because it's, it makes a little bit of sense that you would not want to go through the holidays with someone that, and you sent a thing too, and this is important to point out, like when the breakup happens, when that talk or these days text message or phone call happens. SPEAKER_05: It's not okay. SPEAKER_06: That is the end of something for maybe both of you, but definitely one of you. SPEAKER_05: Yeah, sometimes, most of the time. SPEAKER_06: That actual act of saying we're breaking up, that's at the end of many, many weeks or even months or even years of contemplation about whether or not you want to still be with this person. SPEAKER_05: Right, and that's why – Being broken up with is almost across the board way harder than breaking up.Because by the time, like you said, by the time the person who initiates the breakup initiates the breakup, this is at the end of a long road of decision making.Yeah.Whereas the other person might have been blissfully unaware or at least willfully ignorant or not willing to address the issues.Yeah. And so they are one way or another largely caught off guard by being broken up with.So the person who does the breaking up has already gone through all these stages of grief or of separation, whereas now it's this person, the person who's just been dumped.It's their time to go through it. SPEAKER_06: Right.So if you're doing the dumping, like the hour after you have that conversation, you're like, what a relief, I'm starting over.Let's go get some gin.Whereas the dumpee is like, let's go get some gin.That begins their process.Although the only thing I'll take issue with that whole line of thought, though, is that a lot of people, even that might get dumped, aren't like, what?Like, they may have known and just didn't want to admit it.Right. Or weren't brave enough or strong enough to do it themselves.Yeah.And I agree with you on that. SPEAKER_05: I think that there's still a thread that they had not been preparing themselves just by being in, say, denial or unwilling to address it, face it.Now they have no... choice, but to face reality.Whereas the person who did the breakup was like facing reality and coming to terms with it quietly.Sure.And then now it's your turn. SPEAKER_06: Right.Which brings me back to my original point, which is Christmas and spring break make a little bit of sense because the person who is desperate to get out of a relationship and break up with somebody, they're staring at those Christmas holidays and that first week of December rolls around.They're like, I got to do this now because I don't want to, Travel out of town with this person and go through the whole gift thing.Right.And the holidays are just – it's tough to be in a relationship that's a lie. SPEAKER_05: Well, sure, because – Around the holidays.I mean, the holidays are so about, like, connecting and feeling and warmth and all that.And if you're faking it or have to fake it, you know, some people are like, I'm not going through that.No good.Yeah. I also saw an explanation in Harper's Bazaar, of all places, that some people may do that because of the pressure of coming up with a really good gift. SPEAKER_06: Sure. SPEAKER_05: That the relationship is not worth—the pressure of coming up with a good gift outweighs the value of the relationship to those people.Or there are some people who don't want to put their significant other through that, so they just break up proactively.Right. Right.Which also means that they didn't value the relationship that much either.But at least in their mind, they're not doing it for themselves.They're doing it for the other person because they don't want to put the other person through that pressure of having to get the perfect gift. SPEAKER_06: Yeah, I've never had that thing either where you start dating someone and it's like a couple of weeks before their birthday or Christmas.And then that pressure of like, man, how do I play this one? SPEAKER_05: After a couple of weeks? SPEAKER_06: Yeah. SPEAKER_05: Oh, yeah.That's a pass.You really like this person.Sure.But how deep do I go on this gift?Here, I don't really know you, so I got you a basket of socks.Everyone loves socks.So here's an Amazon gift card for $38.50.All right. After a couple of weeks, that's a little close. Yeah, I think so.Come up with a perfect gift or even be expected to. SPEAKER_06: And I did mention breaking up by text or whatever, like you would suspect if you were born before 1975, like myself. you break up in person, supposedly, about 74% of the time. SPEAKER_08: Not bad. SPEAKER_06: Post-1984, if you were born, less than 50% of the time you're going to do that in person.And they say Generation Y, whatever that is.I think it's Millennials.Is it?I'm pretty sure.When did they name them?Do they know what, like, does my daughter have a generation already?I don't know.Like a name? SPEAKER_05: I'm sure somebody out there has named your daughter's generation.So annoying. Don't box her in.Right.Well, you got to pigeonhole folks. SPEAKER_06: Let her grow up.Yeah.Be her own person.But if you are Gen Y, you're more likely 30% to do it over the phone.And, of course, this says a searing instant message or an email.I think these days you would call that a text. SPEAKER_05: An email is the lowest – Percent-wise and compassion-wise, 4% of people break up by email.Text is pretty bad.Email is as bad as it gets.Was it Sex and the City where it was a sticky note? SPEAKER_06: No, I don't remember.In the movie or the show?I didn't see the movie. SPEAKER_05: Sticky note breakup.I think so. SPEAKER_06: Should we take a break? SPEAKER_05: Yeah, let's take a break, man.This is going really well so far.Okay. SPEAKER_10: Zigazoo has made me zigzag.What I mean by that is I swore I would never let my kids on social media, but now I'm setting them loose on Zigazoo.Before I found Zigazoo, I believed all social media was inappropriate for kids. 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Here's all the things wrong with you, Bob.Pretty much. Whereas men, it's a little more supposedly a little more nebulous. SPEAKER_05: Where'd the magic go?Yeah, there you go.That's apparently the difference is as far as like rationale for breaking up. SPEAKER_06: And these are so macro level and broad.Right.And how we talk about it.It's a little embarrassing to even do. To talk about this stuff? SPEAKER_05: Yeah.I know. SPEAKER_06: Men do this and women do this. SPEAKER_05: Right.No, it's absolutely true.But I feel like when you talk about this, people can find themselves in the contours of all, if you put all this stuff together.Yeah.If you just took one study and said that this is definitive, people should punch you in the kidney. SPEAKER_06: Agreed. SPEAKER_05: But not really.Don't punch anybody.You know, everyone, over the last almost 11 years of stuff you should know, I've said a lot of things that make it sound like I'm inciting people to violence.Friendly violence, though.I was joking every single time.Why?Someone said something?No, I just want to make sure that everyone knows that I was never... ever actually serious in saying hit somebody in the head with a tack hammer.Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or punch someone in the kidney.You do that a lot, actually. SPEAKER_06: I'm kidding all the time.Except for when you recommend that you pants somebody in front of a classroom. SPEAKER_05: I was kidding even then, too.That's psychological abuse.It is.It's physical, but it's more psychological than anything.You ever been pantsed in front of people?Yes.Really?Yes, and I can tell you it's psychological abuse. SPEAKER_06: I don't think I've ever been pantsed. Boy, I can't imagine anything more horrifying than being pantsed without underwear on. SPEAKER_05: Well, I can confirm that because I can't remember being pantsed.I just remember that I have been pantsed.So I think I just immediately blocked out everything. SPEAKER_06: Yeah.So no story there.No.No.Okay.So if you get broken up with, you will feel... And we're going to talk about the science of a lot of this because it's very similar to overcoming addiction sometimes.But, of course, depression and anxiety, sometimes suicidal thoughts. SPEAKER_05: Sometimes homicide.Oh, sure.That's an outcome, worst-case outcome, that and suicide of breakups.But they are directly related to breakups.That's how bad breakups can be. SPEAKER_06: Yeah.And apparently, you know, when people do write in about getting dumped and stuff, I always say, you know, it's the most trite thing in the world.But like time is the only thing that really helps. SPEAKER_08: Yeah. SPEAKER_06: Like ice cream and stuff like that is good.But like it really does decrease over time.However, in studies, eight weeks after being dumped, In this study, 40% of people still had signs of clinical depression and 12% appeared moderately or severely depressed.So it depends on the relationship, how long you're in it, how much it meant to you, what kind of person you are, but it can stick around for a bit. SPEAKER_05: It can.So the thing is, though, there are things you can do to help accelerate the healing process, and we'll talk about those at the end.How about that?Okay.We'll make you all wait.All right.So where are we at, Chuck? SPEAKER_06: Are we at the— Well, the attachment styles, I think, is interesting because we did talk about, like, gay, straight, cisgendered, you know, on the gender spectrum. SPEAKER_07: Mm-hmm. SPEAKER_06: Maybe none of that matters.Maybe what matters is what they call your attachment style.That's what this says pretty plainly. SPEAKER_05: That's what it comes down to. SPEAKER_06: How you attach yourselves to other people. SPEAKER_05: You can be a needy, clingy dude.You can be an avoidant woman.Or you can be either one of those things anywhere on the gender spectrum.That's the thing.The idea that women are clingy and men are distant is... Fabled. SPEAKER_06: Yeah. SPEAKER_05: Or it's at least ham-fisted. SPEAKER_06: Yeah, I think so.It's sort of that thing in social science that bothers me, which is like you're either this or this. SPEAKER_05: Right. SPEAKER_06: Like one thing or the other. SPEAKER_05: And really all you are is a white college student.That's what they really mean.Yeah.Who had a little time on their hands.Right.Who needed extra credit. SPEAKER_06: But there are two supposedly, again, two things.Attachment styles, anxious attachment and avoidant attachment. SPEAKER_05: Well, Conger points out like that's two ends of a spectrum.Oh, okay.And you can fall somewhere on there.There's actually a – it's pretty straightforward.It's the OIS, I believe, or OSI.It's a scale where you pick how your relationship is best described by a series of Venn diagrams. And one circle is you, and one circle is your significant other.And they're just increasingly together from just barely touching to almost completely merged into one single circle.And you just circle the one that best describes your sense of what your relationship's like, and that supposedly gets your spectrum of placement on the spectrum of attachment across. SPEAKER_06: Oh, interesting. SPEAKER_05: So it's real subjective and self-reported, so that is to say not scientific. SPEAKER_06: Right, unfortunately.Supposedly, two-thirds of women initiate divorces, and in this article it says that might give them a statistical edge over getting over a relationship. SPEAKER_05: Because they initiated the breakup, so they've been in the process already.Maybe.That's what I think she meant. SPEAKER_06: I think so.I'm just not so sure that just because a woman initiates a divorce— It may have been after years of systematic abuse, you know?Right.Which may not mean, like, she's so ready to get over this quicker than he might be. SPEAKER_05: Right.You know?Yeah, no, I mean, you can't just say, like, if X, then Y. Right.With this stuff.It's relationships.They're as messy as humans get.It's a relationship. SPEAKER_06: Yeah.That's all you need to say.Yeah. Well, let's talk about the brain a little bit because this is where it does get a little more interesting, I think.Thank God.Slightly more scientific.Okay.There was a study in 2011 by neurologists at the Einstein College of Medicine, which sounded totally fake. SPEAKER_05: Totally. SPEAKER_06: But it's not. SPEAKER_05: I have sounds made up written down.It's in the Bronx.Yeah, there's also... Reputable.There were also anthropologists from Rutgers and SUNY to legitimize things. In this study. SPEAKER_06: If Rutgers is legitimizing things, then we're in trouble. SPEAKER_05: Oh, really?Is that really?I thought Rutgers was all right.Or am I confusing it with Tufts? SPEAKER_06: You're probably thinking Princeton. SPEAKER_05: Okay.Both New Jersey schools.I thought Rutgers was the public ivy. Okay.Sorry, Rutgers.I tried.I can't wait to hear from them. SPEAKER_06: They're going to be so mad at me.I've hung out at Rutgers.I've been there, people.So you know what you're talking about.I know exactly what I'm talking about. SPEAKER_05: Is it like the Detroit of New Jersey colleges or something?That's not untrue.Okay.All right. SPEAKER_06: You don't disagree.Boy, we're going to get killed.That's okay.So this study from Einstein College of Medicine found that just looking at a photograph of of an ex-partner caused the second somatosensory cortex and the dorsal posterior insula. SPEAKER_07: Nice. SPEAKER_06: Jeez.And these areas process physical discomfort.They start lighting up.The same thing happens when you... Get physically injured, basically.Right. SPEAKER_05: Like you are in actual legitimate pain as far as your brain is concerned in the midst of a breakup, at least when you're stuck in an MRI machine and shown a picture of your recent ex. SPEAKER_06: Which is a big deal now with social media because every modern article I read about breakups and getting over them talked about what a deleterious effect social media will have on your recovery process.Are you taunting me? Because this stuff's everywhere now.It used to be easy.You could just... Throw everything in a shoebox and set it on fire and send it down a river in a little boat made of rage. SPEAKER_05: Sure. SPEAKER_06: But you can't do that anymore because they're everywhere. SPEAKER_05: No, but that's tip number one from psychologist Guy Winch, author of How to Fix a Broken Heart.Stay the H off of social media.Do not stalk your ex on social.Do not check in.Like, just separate.Yeah. SPEAKER_06: imagine that would be really hard because in the old days it was just left to your imagination to think about how much fun they were having with you know now you can see pictures of the nine new boyfriends that she has right um But, yeah, you're right.Or, you know, maybe it helps some people. SPEAKER_05: I don't know.I think it's imperative that you not do that to help.Like, it's not like watching them on social media will prevent you from ever getting over it.I think no matter what you do, you're going to eventually get past this. SPEAKER_06: Sure. SPEAKER_05: But all you're doing is prolonging the process unnecessarily. SPEAKER_06: Yeah.And then also when you were on the fMRI machine, And they did brain scans from people who had been broken up with recently.They found that very much similar to people overcoming like an addiction to cocaine in that that same circuitry is of overcoming addiction is just lighting up.It's that potent. SPEAKER_05: Yeah.So, so far with this MRI study from Albert Einstein came up with is that you were in physical pain from the breakup.And you're the same centers that are activated by addiction cravings, withdrawals are activated by the breakup as well. That's astounding. SPEAKER_06: Yeah, and this weird mental cycle happens, basically, when you do look at, like, a photograph of a, what they say, a former lover. SPEAKER_05: Right.Lover.Like the Burger King laying on a rug.Bearskin rug. SPEAKER_06: But you'll see the photo, and the weird thing is you'll immediately get a reward.You will get a dopamine hit, like a pleasurable feeling by seeing this person that you love.And then you realize, oh, wait.Well, then you get sad immediately afterward.And then that sagness – Where did that come from?It is a little saggy feeling.That triggers the brain's ventral tegmental area in the nucleus.Acumen bins? SPEAKER_05: Acumen bins?I think so.I know we've run into that before.We used to talk about the brain a lot more.Acumen bins. SPEAKER_06: I think we figured out the brain though, right?So we stopped. SPEAKER_05: Yeah.We were like, it's done. SPEAKER_06: But these two things working together, regardless of how I mispronounce them... they trigger the urge to see that person.So you get sad and then your brain lights up in two areas and you go, hey, like remember that dopamine hit you get from looking at this picture? Why don't you just give them a call and see what's going on? SPEAKER_05: Right.You want the real stuff.Go.Go get them.They also, those two areas apparently also are analytical as well.So they're responsible for rehashing the relationship.But apparently they're not very realistic because most people, when rehashing the relationship, highlight the good parts and forget about all the bad parts. SPEAKER_06: I kind of have tended to do that. SPEAKER_05: I think everybody does.I don't understand why. SPEAKER_06: I don't know.I don't agree with that.Emily, and we've, of course, been married so long, this subject never comes up anymore.But I was always like, oh, with the old girlfriend, what was so bad there? And then if I really thought about it, I would remember where she's always like, oh, that was awful. SPEAKER_05: Oh, really? SPEAKER_06: Yeah. SPEAKER_05: Gotcha.Well, she's smart. SPEAKER_06: Yeah, maybe so.And I'm a dum-dum, so that all makes sense. SPEAKER_05: But, okay, so even – and you're not a dum-dum.Even if – Like, you represent a third of people or a half of people who do, when rehashing, only think about the good stuff and forget about all the negative stuff.Like, what is that?Why does that even happen?It's bizarre if you think about it. SPEAKER_06: Probably a personality thing.Like, if I tend to be optimistic, maybe, or... SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah, I guess that's a pretty good explanation to tell you the truth.What I was going to say is if you look at relationships or romantic love as an evolutionary drive to pair and mate successfully over and over again and to stay together, that would bring you back to this person that you've already connected with rather than making you go look for another mate.That makes sense.So maybe it's kind of like a backstop or a failsafe for... For breakups, evolutionarily speaking. SPEAKER_06: Right, like I was so close to having nine babies. SPEAKER_05: Like, do I really want to start all over again?Right, right.Which is funny because that means that Emily's more evolved than you in that sense. SPEAKER_06: Yeah, in every sense.That's awesome.But the end of that mental cycle basically, though, is those areas light up that say, go back and see that person.Then you are immediately unsatisfied about the fact that that's not happening. SPEAKER_08: Right. SPEAKER_06: That's when your prefrontal cortex trips into gear, and that's when you get angry.And it's just that mental cycle that starts seeing that photo on a social media platform and ending up upset in the end. SPEAKER_05: But the same study led by Helen Fisher found that after over time, the same process is greatly degraded.Sure.I think they did a follow-up in – Well, months, Conger says, found that the whole process and all of the neurochemicals and the brain regions are much less active, which again, it's just time.Give it time. SPEAKER_06: Right, but if you don't give it time and you do the thing where you do get back together, that can be great, you know.Sometimes you can work it out and people can change.But there's a big caveat there.Well, right, go ahead.No.No, no, no, you say yours.Okay.Because I think I'm talking about something else. SPEAKER_05: So what I saw was that if you get back together – Rather than saying, like, this is a fresh start.We're going to try this over again.We're going to really make a go of it.If you do that, all you're going to do is just walk right back into the same pitfalls and pratfalls because the separation probably did nothing or virtually nothing to your individual personalities.Right.Which are the source of all of your conflicts.Right. So it's not like you just magically worked your conflicts out and you're getting back together and everything's fine.That's just a charade. But if you get back together and say, I decided I love you the way you are and I don't want to be away from you and I just accept you for you and I accept our relationship with all of its problems, you're probably going to have a successful reunion.Yeah. If you go into it like all of our problems are solved because we broke up, you're just going to do the same thing again down the line.And that's apparently a fairly frequent thing that something like 60% or some crazy percentage of the younger generation, Generation Y, I guess, die. The process of breaking up, the majority of them, that breakup involves getting back together multiple times, not just once.So you're getting back together and just going through the same pattern.I think there's a field of thought in psychology called scripts.These are scripts that we're playing out one another's scripts.And if you don't alter the scripts, you're going to go through the same script over and over again. You're working out the same things from your past or from your childhood against one another, and you're not doing it in the right way. So all you're doing is creating conflict.And that doesn't just magically go away because you spend a couple months apart.You have to just say, I love you for who you are, and we're going to just keep going. SPEAKER_06: Yeah, I think what I was going to say was, don't they think, though, that that also depends on just what kind of person you are in terms of thinking either people can really make substantial change in their lives or they can't? SPEAKER_05: That's how you deal with a breakup, which we'll talk about in a minute.That sounds like a good place for a break.I think so, too.All right. SPEAKER_02: Have you heard about the social media platform for kids?It's called Zigazoo.It's a great place where kids like me can come together to make fun videos. 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SPEAKER_06: Maybe you've stayed in an Airbnb before and thought to yourself, this actually seems pretty doable.Maybe my place could be an Airbnb.It could be as simple as starting with a spare room or your whole place when you're away.You could be sitting on an Airbnb and not even know it.Maybe there's a big tournament in town and lots of fans will be visiting. You could Airbnb your home or extra room and make some extra money while people are in town.Whether you could use extra money to cover some bills or for something a little more fun, your home might be worth more than you think.Find out how much at Airbnb.com slash host. SPEAKER_05: Dell TechFest starts now.To thank you for 40 unforgettable years, Dell Technologies is celebrating with anniversary savings on their most popular tech for a limited time only.Save on select next-gen PCs like the XPS 13 Plus, where you can make the everyday easier with Windows 11.That's right. SPEAKER_06: You can unleash more possibilities with cutting-edge systems, the most advanced features, and great prices.Plus, curate your dream setup with deals on select monitors, mice, and more must-have electronics and accessories. SPEAKER_05: And when you shop online at dell.com slash deals, you'll have access to state-of-the-art technology to match your forward-thinking spirit and free shipping on everything. SPEAKER_06: That's right.Anniversary savings await you for a limited time only at dell.com slash deals.That's D-E-L-L dot com slash deals.Thank you. Before we get to that, what we were just talking about before the split, this is one piece of data from the same-sex couple community.Supposedly from studies, they do think that same-sex couples are better at staying friends.Yeah, I saw that.After a breakup. SPEAKER_05: Yeah.Which... Particularly lesbian couples. SPEAKER_06: Yeah. SPEAKER_05: And then gay men.And then straight couples are like... SPEAKER_06: Forget about it.So long.Yeah, it's an interesting thing.Can you really be friends after?And it all depends on how intense and how long and how kind of a person you are.But, yeah, it's interesting when I meet people that legitimately are friends with people that they seriously dated years later. SPEAKER_05: Pretty rare, I think, actually.I think it is, too.I think it seems less rare because you see it on, like, TV shows a lot.Right.You know?And it's also almost aspirational.Like, oh, look at how, like, how laid back and, like, with these people are that they can be friends after this, you know?I think it's pretty rare, actually.I think it's an idealized form.Right. Because people like to, you like to think that, like, you're on good terms with everybody in your life. SPEAKER_06: I think that's usually the person breaking up, though.There's like, I'd like to still be friends.Right, sure.Whereas the person getting broken up with is like, over. SPEAKER_05: Or you could get hit by a car.Right, yeah.And that would solve the problem.Yeah.And then sticking with the whole same-sex straight thing, are we saying straight still? I don't know.That doesn't feel right, does it?It doesn't.So let's just say same-sex and hetero?Yeah. Hetero.There's a clinical name for it.Oh, boy.So the— Time and marriage seem to be the two greatest indicators, at least as far as this one study I saw went, for the likelihood of staying together over long periods of time.Like all relationships, same-sex and hetero, man, woman, all of them are at the greatest risk of breakup within the first year or two.Right.And then it starts to drop precipitously.But I think married hetero couples – have a fairly low rate of... a low chance of breaking up over time. It's pretty much flat the whole time.And then with same-sex couples, the same thing happens.The chance of breakup is pretty high at the beginning, and then it starts to come down, and then it basically tracks with hetero couples for marriage.So marriage is kind of the factor.Time is the second factor.But then time... It stops being a factor after like 30, 40 years for unmarried couples, both hetero and same-sex.They start to break up after a year like 30 or 40.Like the chance of a breakup increases, yeah.But once you get married, once you get a ring on it, over time, over like, you know, decades is what we're talking about, your chance is almost nil of breaking up. All right.Like less than I think a percent.Huh.But that doesn't sound right because don't like half of all marriages end in divorce? SPEAKER_06: Yeah. SPEAKER_05: This thing was way off.But maybe that's when taking into account, maybe that's front-loaded by all the divorces that happened in the first five years or something like that. SPEAKER_06: Yeah. SPEAKER_05: Okay. SPEAKER_06: That would make a little bit more sense.Yeah, it does.They do find that your chances of getting over a breakup or adjusting to that new post-breakup life really centers around regaining your sense of self that when you couple up with someone – it's not saying you can't have a sense of self anymore because it's very healthy to.Sure.But there's an inevitable absorption and morphing that happens.And a little bit of your sense of self goes away when you couple. SPEAKER_05: Yeah.All the same friends, the same phone number. SPEAKER_06: Yeah. SPEAKER_05: And the same address. SPEAKER_06: Yeah.Boy, what about couples that share the email address? SPEAKER_05: Yeah.You mean I have one?Really?Sure. SPEAKER_06: Sure. Never had one, but you have your own too. SPEAKER_05: Well, yeah, we each have our own, but we have our shared one too. SPEAKER_06: I think I'm talking about the people that just have the shared address.Sure.I've always found that interesting. SPEAKER_05: Yeah. SPEAKER_06: I'm judging.I don't know anybody who just has a shared address.I don't get why people would have the same one, I guess.I just always, Emily still has a MindSpring address. Wow.Is it emilyatmindspring.com?No.And that is the truth because I'm not saying that just to keep people from emailing her.But she had it for so long.And I make fun of her all the time. Sure.Because she still pays like $20 a year for this.What?And she was like, I've had it for so long that I just can't give it up.Well, that's why people stay on Facebook.Yeah, like I'm not changing my email address.There's like so many memories there.It's like... Even that, just her contact list and every email, like... I don't know.I just think it's funny. I was like, where's that money going? SPEAKER_05: Right.Who owns Todd Minespring, the heir of the Minespring fortune.He can count on 20 bucks a month from your house. SPEAKER_06: He's getting a couple of packets of cigarettes every month because of Emily.Oh, man.And then for recovery, the whole stress-related growth thing that can happen with recovery, which is, and I think women tend to be more apt to do this than men, but like, all right, you know what?I'm free now.I'm going to do all those things that I lost While I was with him, I didn't have time for my friends anymore.I lost connections with them.I didn't fly model airplanes or RC airplanes anymore.I'm going to drop some weight. I'm going to start eating healthier.The post-breakup weight loss is a huge, huge thing.It is.And partially from stress, but partially just because, like, I'm going to make myself the best I can be.And I'll show her or him. SPEAKER_05: I think it's also, like, just as simple as, like, more free time. SPEAKER_06: Sure.You know, too.And something to do that is— You know, exercise is also stress relieving.You might not be eating as much because your stomach is tied up into stress knots.Right.So there are a bunch of reasons for it. SPEAKER_05: But here is that – here's where that part you were talking about earlier I said we would get to kind of kicks in is how much of the self you identify with – does relate to how well you handle a breakup.How much of the you is the we in the relationship?And what they found is that that's a huge part of it, but more significant is the amount of growth that happens while you're in a relationship.Like you can share a tremendous amount of the same self with your significant other and grow as a person as a result. And if you do that, you're actually going to have a harder breakup because that we, that super attachment that led to that personal growth is related to that other person who's now gone.Whereas if you were – even if you were totally enmeshed with another person but you didn't grow much personally, if you experience a burst of growth after the breakup, you're going to have the easiest breakup of all. Even though you were super enmeshed with the person, you weren't growing.But then you grow afterward.Now that period of non-growth is related to that person who's gone. And you can be like, so long, zero.I'm going to make myself a hero.Yeah. Yeah.Do you see?Sure.Did they come across?Yeah.Because sometimes I'm not the best at explaining things. SPEAKER_06: Which is pretty funny if you think about it.It really is.In 2000, they did a study at Northwestern University where they did find out, though, that they asked people, I believe— how bad do you think this breakup is going to be if you're in a relationship?What if you broke up?And then they found out that they weren't as bad off as they thought they would be, which is encouraging. SPEAKER_05: It is, but also think about this, Chuck.These vultures who are running the study were like, you're in a relationship.We're going to study just in case you guys break up.And so they would get that info, that self-reporting info about how bad the breakup would be, and then they swooped in Upon the breakup, they're like, how bad is it?Yeah.Tell us.And the person was like, well, this is as bad as it is.And it was almost across the board.Yeah. Not anywhere near as bad as the people thought it would be when they were in the relationship. SPEAKER_07: Yeah. SPEAKER_05: Which is pretty surprising.And what was even more surprising is the more in love you are, the easier it's going to be relative to how bad you think it will be during the relationship.Right.Which makes sense if you stop and think about it. SPEAKER_06: Yeah, I thought the other interesting thing, too, when we were talking about getting over a breakup and your sense of self, that's closely tied to how you feel about rejection.And there are a couple of – I mean, more than a couple of ways.But if your reflection of your – how you think about rejection is tied heavily into how you feel about yourself.So there's some people that – might be rejected and it might devastate them because they start to analyze themselves and what did I do wrong and what's wrong with me.Right.There's a whole other camp out there and I think this goes into personality and ego and all that stuff.You call these people healthy.Or sociopaths. SPEAKER_05: Oh, you think so?Maybe.Oh, I took it to be healthy.Wow.We just put both of our cards on the table, didn't we? SPEAKER_06: But the people that are like, yeah, I got broken up with and I got rejected, but You know.S happens.That happens in life.People get rejected.It's not because of me.Just not everyone, you know, can be together. SPEAKER_05: So you find this quote sociopathic.I learned that two people can both be quality individuals, but that doesn't mean they belong together.That's sociopathic to you? SPEAKER_06: That's, that was, oh wait, it says he said that.It was Ted Bundy. Patrick Bateman?No, no, no.I don't think it necessarily means you're a sociopath, but I think someone that is a true sociopath would probably be way more apt to be like, oh, yeah, well.It was them, not me.Yeah, it's like, it's fine.People just break up. SPEAKER_05: There's a subgroup to that sociopath, as you call it, camp.And they are like, well, breakups happen.I heard what the other person said, and there's some things I feel like I need to work on.Like say I was a terrible communicator.So I'm going to work on becoming a better communicator as a result.That's called stress-related growth is what that's called, where you're growing out of this horrific experience.And that's healthy.That's super healthy.But the key is, And what's unhealthy is to say this was all because of some fatal flaw that I have. Right.That's part of my personality that I'll never be able to get rid of.And so all I'm going to do is poison every relationship from here on out.And I'm just going to build walls and keep everybody at a distance.And that's what some people do as a result of a breakup.And you can't do that.Right. Even if your brain starts to go that way, this research says, stop it.Don't.You have to disassociate yourself. Become the sociopath, I guess, if need be, to say this is not because of an inherent flaw in me that's uncorrectable.Even if the person was right, even if they're like, you're a terrible communicator and you have serious mommy issues.Right. That doesn't mean that you will always be a terrible communicator with serious mommy issues.You could work on those post-breakup and become a much better SO to the next person or whatever.The key is not... Not being a fatalist, like there's nothing you can do to change.Right.And then also you should evaluate whether the person was saying that in anger.Sure. How much faith you put in their opinion of you.There's a lot of factors that you need to take into account before you take on that kind of thing that just puts you in the bottom of a well.Yeah.Where you could conceivably hang out for the rest of your life if you're not careful. SPEAKER_06: Yeah. SPEAKER_05: Without... Copious amounts of therapy. SPEAKER_06: Yeah, agreed.Or turning to drugs and alcohol, which is a big... Gin.Yeah, a big thing that a lot of people do. SPEAKER_05: Gin cuts both ways. SPEAKER_06: Should we talk about some of these tips from this guy? SPEAKER_05: From psychologist Guy Winch.Remember, number one is don't check up on them on social media. SPEAKER_06: Good luck with that. SPEAKER_05: Here's why he says that this will reinforce your ex's presence in your mind and will make it harder for you to stop fantasizing about your broken relationship.You're basically just like literally keeping them right there in front of your face.Right.Through social media. SPEAKER_06: Yeah. SPEAKER_05: Which is why it's a bad idea. SPEAKER_06: Number two, avoid creating mysteries about why the breakup happened. Uh, and again, this is along those same lines of just keeping your ex like forefront in your mind, which is hard.I mean, it's going to take a little while.Sure.You don't expect the next day to pop up and just be like, well, they're out of my mind.That's sociopathic.Yeah.Even if you're the breaker upper, um, You know, it doesn't mean that you don't have a process to go through as well. SPEAKER_05: Sure. SPEAKER_06: You know? SPEAKER_05: But that's why he says avoid creating mysteries.Like, it's probably going to happen, but, like, be mindful when it's going on and be like, enough.Right.I'm going to go work out. SPEAKER_06: Yeah. SPEAKER_05: Or go drink some gin.Or both. SPEAKER_06: Number three, make a list of all the – oh, this is a good one.Make a list of all the compromises that you had to make that you don't want to make again.Start to think about, like, you know, when I was with this person, I felt like I could never really – Yeah. have my real sense of humor out in public because they thought it was loud. SPEAKER_05: That counters that rehashing that just focuses on the positive. SPEAKER_06: Yeah. SPEAKER_05: It cuts the legs out from under that. SPEAKER_06: Cutting legs. SPEAKER_05: What about number four? SPEAKER_06: Do the things that used to bring you enjoyment is kind of what I was talking about earlier.Even if they don't seem interesting now, that whole thing where like, geez, I used to really love pottery.Right.And throwing clay.Sure.And I just, I quit doing it once I started dating Josh. SPEAKER_08: Yeah. SPEAKER_06: I have no clay throwing in my house.And Josh hated it when Chuck went to the potter's wheel. Because it reminded him of Ghost and Josh hated that movie.So he wouldn't allow me to do it.But you know what?I'm going to reclaim that pottery wheel. SPEAKER_05: Yeah.Which is ironic because I was always walking around our house dressed like Patrick Swayze in that scene.But I still hated that movie.Oh.I was more like the Chris Farley Chippendale.Oh, yeah. SPEAKER_06: Patrick Swayze version.Number five, remove reminders.This is the box that you will burn. SPEAKER_05: Mm-hmm. SPEAKER_06: Which is now just throw your laptop in the fireplace.Right.And your smartphone. SPEAKER_05: And then like reconnect with your friends.Like, yeah, you left them in the dust years ago, but they're still alive.They probably wouldn't mind hearing from you. SPEAKER_06: Yeah, the problem here is if you truly do have a mix of friends that you both love.Sure.And it's not like I didn't leave behind all my old friends.Right.Or the worst case scenario is like all of my friends are from you.Now what do I do? Go down to the YMCA and make some new friends.I guess so.I found this one last study I thought was interesting.The best way to get over a breakup according to science. And this was actually published in the Journal of Experimental Psychology.And they tested a bunch of strategies for getting over a breakup.24 heartbroken people, ages 20 to 37. that had been in at least a two and a half year relationship.So pretty significant.Some were dumpies, some were dumpers.And they said there were three strategies.One is to negatively reappraise your ex.Just think about all the bad things.The other one was called love reappraisal, which is believe and read statements like, it's okay to love someone I'm no longer with. Like, it's all right.And then the third was distraction.Literally, the ice cream and movies trick. SPEAKER_05: The black mirror trick. SPEAKER_06: And then there was the fourth prompt, which was the control, which was don't think about anything.Which, of course, means you're thinking of the state of marshmallow man. SPEAKER_05: Don't think about anything.Really just undermine the science of that study. SPEAKER_06: Clear your brain. So those were the four prompts.Then they showed everyone.They hooked everyone up to an EEG machine. SPEAKER_08: Okay. SPEAKER_06: Showed them photos of their exes.All right.And they measured the intensity of emotion in response to that photo and then had them use these different prompts to see, like, which one works best. SPEAKER_05: When they looked in, the people who were not thinking about anything, they were bleeding out of their eye sockets. They were. SPEAKER_06: And according to the readings, all three of the strategies significantly decreased their emotional response to the photos relative to the control.If you looked at your ex in a negative light, that first one, like, oh, they were such a jerk, you had a decrease in feelings of love, but you left in a worse mood, like that dredged up bad feelings. SPEAKER_05: Like you wasted your time or something like that. SPEAKER_06: Maybe, or just like, just really took me off thinking about all that stuff.Right.You know, so now I did this dumb study. SPEAKER_05: Got to go throw some clay. SPEAKER_06: That's right.Distraction made you feel better overall. but did not have much of an effect on how you really felt about them. SPEAKER_08: Okay. SPEAKER_06: You just didn't leave in necessarily a bad mood.You just got ice cream and watched a funny movie.Good enough.Which is fine, but they said that that doesn't do anything long-term to help you recover. SPEAKER_05: Oh, okay. SPEAKER_06: Just like a temporary whatever. SPEAKER_05: Does it prolong it, though, do you think?I mean, you know as much as the people conducting this stuff. SPEAKER_06: It said it's a form of avoidance that is shown to reduce the recovery. SPEAKER_05: Okay, so it would prolong it then.I guess so.Everybody stop eating ice cream and watching Black Mirror. SPEAKER_06: And then love appraisal showed no effect on your mood or how you feel about them, but it did dull the emotional response a little bit. SPEAKER_05: So there's really nothing to do. SPEAKER_06: Doesn't sound like it. SPEAKER_05: I saw a couple more tips. One is you could write a letter that under no circumstances will you ever send. SPEAKER_06: Yeah, that's a good trick.Not for love relationships, but just like anything bothering her. SPEAKER_05: It also really works well for grieving too.You just write a letter.Sure.And you say whatever you want because you know for a fact that the other person will never read it.You're a jerk. You can say whatever you want, and it's just like a cathartic process that can help hasten things.And then also, why do sad songs feel so good when you're going through a breakup?Why do people seek out sad songs?And the best explanation I saw, the best theory, is that a song is a little capsule of emotion.When you're seeking out a sad song, you're confronting the very emotions that you're probably stifling right then. Yeah. And confronting it in such a raw form forces you to express those emotions, i.e.cry.And that helps you process them faster because you're not pushing them off any longer.You're expressing them.You're sorting through them.So that's what sad songs make you do.That's why people seek out sad songs when they're down.And it actually helps hasten recovery. SPEAKER_06: Lady in red. SPEAKER_05: I don't think that's a sad song. SPEAKER_06: They're standing with me. SPEAKER_05: That's the saddest song.You're like, sailing takes me away. SPEAKER_06: Sailing by Christopher Cross, Lady in Red, and then Dan Fogelberg's Same Old Lang Syne.Right.Three saddest songs. SPEAKER_05: Jerry knows that song.Those were two Christopher Cross songs?He's got two of the three saddest songs?No, Lady in Red's not Christopher Cross.I think it is.No. $5.Gary, we're all nodding no.$5 is on the table.All right. SPEAKER_06: I'll look it up. SPEAKER_05: Well, you guys will find out next episode whether I was right or not.I remember the guy's name.It's Christopher Cross.Oh.Jerry's doing one of her rare speaking parts.She says, Christoph Waltz?That's the actor. SPEAKER_06: You know what's funny is I mistyped something, and it changed my search to Lady in Red Wings. Like Red Wing Boots, I guess.Must be a fetish site. SPEAKER_05: I guess so, yeah.If you want to get in touch with me, Chuck, or Jerry, you can shoot us an email to stuffpodcasts at howstuffworks.com. SPEAKER_03: Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. SPEAKER_00: Hey, Sarah, I love that spring break vlog you posted on Zigazoo.OMG, you watched it?Yeah, it was so cool.I think you're so talented. SPEAKER_10: Social media is only positive with Zigazoo, the world's largest and safest social media network for kids.In Zigazoo, all community members are verified kids like yours, and all content is fully human moderated.Try out Zigazoo this spring break.Download the Zigazoo app today. 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