SPEAKER_01: A group of high school students started a project to research a string of unsolved murders.
SPEAKER_09: There is no profile of this killer except for the ones the students created.
SPEAKER_03: What if this guy's still alive? Like, what if he comes after us?
SPEAKER_08: Once you start getting a few tips or a few leads or a few identifications, then the cold
case isn't so cold anymore.
SPEAKER_06: This is Murder 101.
Listen to Murder 101 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, and welcome to The Short Stuff.
SPEAKER_05: I'm Josh, and there's Chuck and, well, it's just Josh and Chuck. And that's cool because we know what we're doing. We're professionals. We've been doing this for a while, haven't we, Chuck?
SPEAKER_10: Yeah. We're also New York Times bestselling authors.
SPEAKER_05: Isn't that nuts?
SPEAKER_10: That's one of the nicer feathers in our professional caps, I think.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah. And I mean, I knew that was a big deal. And I'm very proud of it and have been since it happened. But after researching this, I'm like, wow, this is a really, really big deal. Especially considering that we were on there for four weeks. That's a big deal. I'm pretty proud of us for it, Chuck.
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, for sure. And the reason we mention that is because, not just to brag, humbly or otherwise, but because we're talking about the New York Times bestseller list, which is basically the industry standard for how good your book is doing and how sort of hot you are as an author in a snapshot of time or over time. And a big thanks to howstuffworks.com for some of this. And Sophie Vershaw from Esquire magazine, who wrote a great article about just sort
of the mysterious black magic that goes into compiling the New York Times list, even though
the New York Times will say, it's just how many books are selling.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, they're very, they publish their methodology. So you know kind of what's going on, but you don't really know exactly what's going on. And there's a lot of people in the publishing world that are very suspicious of the New York Times and their bestseller list. Even though the New York Times goes to great pains to point out that the New York Times bestseller list desk is independent of the editorial desk, advertising, business, culture,
even the book review desk. It's a separate department. The reason that they point that out is because they're saying our bestseller list is insulated from pressure from anybody who might be like, this publisher is a huge advertiser with the Times. Why don't you just, you know, bump this one up from 11 to 10 so it can be on the bestseller list. And they're saying that they are immune to that kind of thing and that their list is, like you said, it's a numbers game and it's not curated or editorialized. That's what they say about it.
SPEAKER_10:
Yeah, and we'll get more into that stuff. But nuts and bolts wise, the list has multiple categories and they all measure different sales types. There are 11 weekly lists, seven monthly lists, and they are separated thusly. You have three categories of books, fiction, nonfiction, and children's books.
SPEAKER_10: And then those are all subdivided as well. Fiction and nonfiction are broken down into hardcover, paperback, and then print and digital combined.
And then nonfiction is broken down into, there's another subcategory for how-to books because
I guess they just want those to live by themselves. Well, that's our list.
SPEAKER_05:
Oh, were we a how-to? We were advice, how-to, and miscellaneous.
I need a teacher that says that.
SPEAKER_10: And then kids' books are divided into middle grade, hardcover, which is all one category, picture books series, and young adult hardcover. And then you got your monthly list and that's where you can find like audio books, graphic novels, manga, stuff like that.
SPEAKER_05:
Yeah, mass market paperbacks, which I was like, what's the difference between mass market paperbacks and regular paperbacks? Mass market paperbacks are printed cheaply and they're distributed like magazines. They're kind of like their own separate thing. The kind you find in like a little spinner rack at the airport. That's a mass market paperback.
SPEAKER_10: All right. So they say, the New York Times says, all right, we have data sources.
We keep them confidential because they want to, quote, circumvent potential pressure on the booksellers and prevent people from trying to game their way onto the list.
We'll talk a lot about the fact that that still happens probably after the break. But they keep their data sources confidential.
SPEAKER_10: They say that they don't use data aggregators and that they're just getting this data from
booksellers. But people in the publishing industry say, I just don't see how that's possible. They've got to use aggregators. But they say they don't.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, they say that every week thousands of book retailers, digital and brick and mortar, send them their sales for hundreds of thousands of books and that they weight them differently. Like indie bookstores might get slightly more consideration than, say, like a Barnes and Noble. That's like the details of the formula that no one knows about. But they say that that's where they get their numbers from. That's where they get their data from. And yeah, like you said, some people are just like, that's just not possible. There's something called ReaderLink. There's something called BookScam. These are huge aggregating tools that there's no way the New York Times bestseller list is just completely ignoring those.
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, but I mean, they say they don't. So it's kind of one of those things where they won't reveal all their methodology. I mean, they print their methodology, but like they don't tell you. I saw it likened to like we kind of know what the formula for Coke is, but not the exact recipe.
SPEAKER_10:
Yeah. And that's basically what's going on because there are plenty of instances where people can point to raw sales data and say, well, hey, the number eight book sold more books than the number four book. How can that be? And the New York Times will say sales data is just one factor and the rest is none. Yeah, it's like an impenetrable fortress.
SPEAKER_05: And they're really, really good on leaks. Like you don't leave the New York Times bestseller desk. And if you do, you probably turn up dead within a week or two in your apartment. It's in a body bag.
SPEAKER_10: All right. Should we take a break? Sure. All right. We'll take a break and we'll talk about gaming the system right after this.
SPEAKER_01: From the studio who brought you the number one podcast, the Piketon Massacre.
SPEAKER_06:
This is Murder 101.
SPEAKER_01: A group of high school students started a project to research a string of unsolved murders. Those murders happened in the mid 1980s.
SPEAKER_09: He's out there doing stuff. He just didn't stop.
Everything that the students predicted through their profile turned out to be accurate.
SPEAKER_02: Redhead killer profile.
Male, Caucasian, 5'9 to 6'2, 180 to 270 pounds.
Unstable home, absent father and a domineering mother. Right handed, IQ above 100. Most likely, heterosexual.
SPEAKER_09: There is no profile of this killer except for the ones the students created. Just because some of these women no longer have people to speak for them does not mean
SPEAKER_00: that they deserve to not be spoken for.
SPEAKER_03:
What if this guy's still alive? Like what if he comes after us? I said, are you gonna kill me?
SPEAKER_06: He said yes. Listen to Murder 101 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
SPEAKER_07: Discover the heartwarming and hilarious world of sibling connections on sibling revelry with Kate Hudson and Oliver Hudson. You might be asking yourself, what is sibling revelry?
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, well, we just made it up.
SPEAKER_07: They'll have some laughs and maybe inspire some people along the way with universal tales of what it's like to grow up with brothers and sisters.
SPEAKER_10: We're full blood siblings, the only full blood sibling.
SPEAKER_07: In our family.
Well, not in the world.
I mean- No, in the whole world. That's just it.
SPEAKER_07: Dive into family tales and explore the human mind with guests like Joel and Benji Madden.
And it's fun because we've decided to open it up, you know, to really like all kinds of different siblings. And it's gonna be an awesome season.
It's more than a podcast. It's a celebration of the ties that bind us. Listen to sibling revelry with Kate Hudson and Oliver Hudson on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
SPEAKER_05: So Chuck, we're back. And you mentioned people gaming the system. It's actually quite possible. It's been done before. And as we'll see, it's apparently routinely done from everybody from, you know, insidious actors,
bad actors.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:
To entire publishing houses, their entire publicity department. That people have just figured out how to, if not directly game the New York Times bestseller list to get on it, at the very least tip the odds in their favor as much as they can.
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, and one, you know, legitimate way you can tip the odds in your favor is something that we did and basically everybody does now. It's called pre-orders. And that's why you hear authors hammering home,
SPEAKER_10: pre-ordering is really a big deal. Like we really love you to pre-order because all of those pre-orders get rolled up into the week one sales. So the goal of any author is to just, is to land on that list, even if it's just that one week. And pre-orders are actually one reason why a lot of people are sort of one week and out. We did do pre-orders, so it's not like anything untoward. Everyone does it. But we were on for four weeks. So I felt like we had some sustained sales, which made me feel pretty good.
SPEAKER_05:
That's one of the things that I turned up in this research that made me feel good about what we did. So yeah. So that's one way to gain sales. Another way to do it is involved in pre-orders. We did giveaways. Some people do like speaking engagements. If you ever go see an author and you get a book, like the price of admission gets you a book, that's done to gain pre-orders too. Because if you do X number of speaking engagements and you sell 100 books at each one, those count toward that first week. And that can add up significantly and help get you on that bestseller list too. There's other ways to do it that are much more insidious and ham-fisted.
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, like there are companies, and they're not gonna advertise this on their website. But apparently there have been some, Washington Post wrote about some of this stuff and the New York Times. There's one company called Book Highlight
that people, publishing insiders say, here's what you can do with a company like that, is you can, as an author, say, here's 20 grand. I want you to go out and buy however many copies of books that that can buy through various independent booksellers, spread it out, buy them in small enough chunks so it looks like organic sales. It's basically book laundering, really.
SPEAKER_05:
For sure.
SPEAKER_10: And then all of a sudden you're rolled up into a week one bestseller list debut, which is what you're really after. Because just being on the list means you're gonna sell more books.
SPEAKER_05:
Right, and authors would hire Book Highlight because the author ends up owning those books and they can either give them away, they can turn around and sell them if they want to. But like you said, it's a business investment. It's a shady, unethical business investment that tricks people into thinking your book is very popular, but it's something that can be done. And it has been done before. That's definitely an insidious way to kind of game the system. And the reason that you said they would go out and buy small amounts of books at a number of different booksellers is because the New York Times pays attention to bulk purchases.
SPEAKER_05:
They factor that in to where if you have like a thousand book purchase from like Amazon or something for your book and that gets reported in your weekly sales, they take that into consideration. They basically say you're trying to game the system.
SPEAKER_05: But rather than not include those people, because again, the mission of the New York Times is to reflect what the average reader out there in the United States is organically buying on their own, going to a retailer online or in person and buying a book,
rather than just include those people who are gaming the system by bulk purchases, they just put like a little dagger, a little cross next to their name. And the thing is to that author and almost everybody who doesn't follow the New York Times bestseller list methodology, they're a New York Times bestseller.
And so critics are like, don't even put those people on the list. You're still legitimizing what they're doing, even though you know they're gaming the system.
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, I also saw though where the dagger, which is essentially an asterisk, is sort of a kiss of death. Oh, really? Yeah, like if you're an author who got the dagger on the list, then everybody in publishing knows the deal.
SPEAKER_05:
Oh, right, right, yeah, yeah. If you're an author, but like if you're, I saw that it's, I think Sophie Verschow said, or Verschbow said it's most often used by business authors. They don't care about the publishing world. They care about their larger public-facing brand.
SPEAKER_10:
Yeah, they said like health and wellness books, self-help books, diet books, and books authored by CEOs. Those are some of the biggest abusers and dagger getters that are gaming the system. So if you see some dumb diet book or some self-help book that all of a sudden is like number two on the list, and you're like, how in the world is that selling more than whatever the Harry Potter book is?
SPEAKER_10: It's probably because they've gained the system, and look for that dagger. That dagger's probably there. Another few people that have been daggered recently, and this is another way you can do it, is Donald Trump Jr., the RNC bought $100,000 worth of his books in week one, and Jared Kushner, there was a pro-Trump PAC that bought $158,000 worth of his books in week one. So they got the dagger, multiple CEOs, Howard Schultz of Starbucks, he got a dagger. All these daggers around, and like you said, I think for the ego of some of them, they don't care.
SPEAKER_05:
No, they don't care, and also they don't care about the publishing world. They're just stepping into it to use the publishing world to boost their larger brand, right? And so that's the big criticism, is people who do bulk purchasing, it's like the New York Times bestseller list shouldn't even include them, because not only is it rewarding somebody who's gaming the system, you're also leaving off people who are actual authors, that's their job. So being on the New York Times bestseller list is a really big deal for them, and being left off in favor of somebody who gamed the system is that much more bitter.
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, absolutely. One thing I do know, stuff you should know, no dagger.
SPEAKER_05:
No, no dagger, we did not game the system.
SPEAKER_10: We did not.
SPEAKER_05: You got anything else?
SPEAKER_10: No, I mean, thank you for everyone who bought books and helped us accomplish that goal, because it's not like we did it. No, we definitely did not.
SPEAKER_05: We did not.
SPEAKER_10: I didn't buy any of them, I got mine for free. Did you buy any?
SPEAKER_05: I bought a couple as gifts, but I don't think that had much of an impact.
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, those two pushed it over the edge.
SPEAKER_05: Exactly.
SPEAKER_05:
You got anything else?
SPEAKER_10: I have nothing else, sir.
SPEAKER_05:
Okay, everybody, Short Stuff is out.
SPEAKER_04:
Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.
For more podcasts to myHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
