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SPEAKER_16: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.
SPEAKER_03: Hey, and welcome to the podcast.I'm Josh, and there's Chuck, and Jerry's here too.Back again on the trip of a lifetime.And it's the three amigos, the three musketeers, the tres caballeros, and stuffy shit.
SPEAKER_05: That's right.Talking about E-N-T-O-Y.
SPEAKER_03: Hey, that was pretty good, Chuck.I was not expecting that.I wouldn't either.Sometimes there's like a little pause in between you talking and me responding, and it's because I'm just astounded, and that was a good example of that.You did great.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, ENT, baby.Let's do it.
SPEAKER_03: Okay, so we're talking today about testosterone, estrogen.What people commonly think of are the two hormones, the female hormone, the male hormone, and that those are what divides us.The sexes are binary.They're bisexual.There's male, there's female.Gender is a totally different topic, as we'll talk about a little bit.But If you have a lot of estrogen, you're female.A lot of testosterone, you're a male.And it turns out that we can trace that.
That's all like generally incorrect.It's such a broad stroke explanation of estrogen and testosterone that it actually has tripped us up all this time.And just from researching this. Chuck, I learned like, wow, if we had just never considered estrogen female and testosterone male, I think our general understanding of those two hormones would be so much deeper.Yeah.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and it's one of those things where we can trace back to a time where that sort of whole notion came from.And, of course, you know, it's early science.They were trying to figure stuff out.But starting in about the mid-19th century is when scientists started kind of going wild with animals and organs and doing things like, hey, rat, let me remove your testicles and let me put some ovaries in you and see what happens. And there was a lot of this going on.There was a British physiologist named Ernest Starling who actually coined the word hormone from the Greek word to excite in 1905.And this is sort of right around that time in the early 1900s when there were other scientists and physiologists doing all kinds of wacky experiments to see what happened.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.And we should say hormones are simply chemical messengers that basically relay messages and trigger responses or keep responses from happening in the body.And that estrogen and testosterone are two kinds of hormones, specifically steroid hormones, meaning they're made from cholesterol, which for some reason I find really gross.Yeah.
SPEAKER_05: So, well, you might find this gross, too, then.There was an Austrian named Eugene Steiner who was doing these kinds of experiments that I was just talking about.And he was saying, like, come here, frog, let me poke around your testicles and get some liquid out of there. Let me, like I said earlier, let me take this rat, let me castrate it, let me transplant some ovaries onto this rat, and then observe what happens.And Steinock was one of those early scientists who kind of led to this sort of binary idea That, you know, if you do this, you're going to feminize a rat or you're going to masculinize a rat if you do that sort of the vice versa operation.
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
SPEAKER_05: But very, very quickly, there were people even back then, scientists that were like, oh, wait a minute.This is it's not quite as binary as you're making it out to be.And there's plenty of examples and reasons why.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you can almost lay the entire problem at the feet of Eugene Steinach, that he was the one who basically said that humans are bisexual, is how he put it, binary sexes, male, female, and it depends on whether you have testosterone or estrogen.And like you said, he got pushback.There was one guy in particular, an embryologist named Carl Moore, who was like, hey, Steinach, stop and think about what you're saying here.Like, even without your, you know, mad scientist experiments, female rats do all sorts of, like, quote, male behaviors and vice versa.And even with your flip-flop, you know, ovaries and gonad rats, they're still doing behaviors that are not easily assigned to one sex or the other.So I'm not 100% sure that it's quite as cut and dried as you have explained it. And Eugene Steinick had Carl Moore murdered, silenced forever.
SPEAKER_05: Not true.At least I don't think it is.
SPEAKER_03: Is that true?I don't think so.I hope not.
SPEAKER_05: I just thought he might have just leaned in with a pillow and gave him the forever hug, you know?That's right.So, flashing forward a little bit to about the turn of the 20th century is when research got a little more serious about it.And they found... that extracts from your ovaries could have beneficial treatments for things like hot flashes during menopause.And it could stimulate what's called estrus, which is where the word estrogen comes from.But estrus is like when an animal is in heat.If you've ever seen a cat or something or a dog in heat, It's pretty clear that something different is going on.And that word estrogen in 1906 comes from that word estrus, which is from the Greek word oistrus, which means mad desire.
SPEAKER_03: It also sounds like a brand of yogurt.
SPEAKER_05: Oysteros?Yeah.Oysteros?
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.So once these guys, like this is the beginning of the 20th century, very late 19th, but mostly the first couple decades of the 20th century, scientists are starting to isolate hormones, and in particular, sex hormones.And they're like, well, what happens if you give them to humans now?Forget frogs and rats and all that stuff. And what they figured out very quickly is, like you said, menopause had been around for a while.And they're like, well, women have menopause and estrogen seems to be the woman's sex hormone.Let's give them estrogen and see what happens.And it actually had a pretty beneficial effect.It's been long known that estrogen given is like a drug. can treat symptoms of menopause, like hot flashes and stuff.
And the first estrogen, I guess, prescription drug is called Premarin, which has like a perfectly legitimate big pharma sound to it, right?Premarin, that's a great name for a drug, but it's even better if you know what it stands for.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and this is, well, should we say what it stands for or say what it is and then what it stands for?
SPEAKER_03: I think you can do both simultaneously, actually.
SPEAKER_05: Well, it's not a synthetic estrogen.It was actually a natural isolated estrogen derived from the urine of a pregnant horse.So, Premarin stood for pre-pregnant mare, mare, and the N from urine.So, Premarin, pregnant horse urine.Yeah.And it was... I believe this is 1939.It was made of like 10 different estrogens and was available commercially in the U.S.just a few years later.And by 1992 was the highest selling drug in the United States.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.If you want to have a good idea of just how crazy the pharmaceutical market has become in the U.S., Premarin was the, I think you said the most prescribed drug in the U.S. ?
SPEAKER_05: Well, the best-selling, so I guess that would match.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
SPEAKER_05: The hit single?
SPEAKER_03: Exactly.So this hit single, Premarin, in 1997, had revenues of $1 billion.Pretty, not shabby.It'd be about $2 billion today.Humira, the second best-selling drug in 2022, had revenues of $21 billion.Wow. And isn't that nuts?Like that's just night and day compared to how far we've – I guess how far we've come is one way to put it.But the upside is Premarin was – it was a lifesaver.Men were like, hey, I'd like you to be sexually available.
Why don't you take this horse urine estrogen?And women were like, it solves my hot flash problems?Sold.Sold. So it actually really was very popular for a while.And it wasn't until I think 2002 that it just dropped off precipitously, right?
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and we should mention, too, that this was, you know, it was obviously for things like hot flashes, but they were also marketing it as a way to maintain femininity as you age.None other than William Masters of Masters and Johnson's fame.Sex crank.They said that women should use the drug to avoid falling into the third sex category. or the neutral gender, which is very off-base, to say the least.But yeah, in 2002, things changed because the Women's Health Initiative released a study about attitudes that really changed everything when it comes to how women, or people in general, think of hormone therapy when they said that it can cause breast cancer, heart disease, blood clots, and stroke, if you take what was called by this time PrimPro, which is Primarin and Provera as a, you know, sort of a cocktail.And they meant it so much, they said, we're even stopping this study.But it turns out there was just a lot of bad reporting about that, right?
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, there's a New York Times Magazine article about menopause by a writer named Susan Dominus, who basically reported that menopause The media just jumped all over it.There's a 26% increased risk in developing breast cancer if you take PremPro or generally have hormone replacement therapy.And that's whopping.That's a big number, a big percentage.But in absolute numbers, it's actually not that big.So the average woman had a 2.33% chance of developing breast cancer.If you took PremPro, you had a 2.99% chance. So like that was your 26% increase.And in real terms, it sorted out to, based on the population at the time, an additional eight women developing breast cancer out of every 10,000 who were taking replacement hormones.
Nothing to sneeze at.Those eight women, I'm sure, would much rather prefer not to have breast cancer.But the point was that the risks of it were grossly overstated.But it got such a bad rap because of the reporting that for a couple of decades, just trust in hormone replacement therapy dropped off.And a lot of women suffered unnecessarily as a result.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and I think they didn't even find that the transdermal variety was in fact much safer than the other way of taking it.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely.So like if you take it orally, which is what it was always before pretty much, it has to go through your liver to be processed.And while it's there, it can do all sorts of nasty stuff, side effects that you don't really want, like causing thrombosis and blood clots that can lead to heart disease.Whereas if you do it transdermally, it just enters the bloodstream and it does its thing with minimal side effects. We've reached the point today where your average gynecologist is probably going to say the benefits, if you're healthy, outweigh the risk of taking it, especially if you are under age 60 and especially if you're under age 70 and you start.Apparently, if you have a gap between menopause and then starting hormone replacement therapy of a decade or two, then it can become pretty risky.And by the way, I don't have my lab coat on right now.I would advise you not to take gynecological health advice from me.Instead, ask your doctor.
But this is what I've seen from research.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.And that, I mean, you say that virtually every time you meet someone in person.I've heard you say those same words.
SPEAKER_03: I'm big on that for sure.
SPEAKER_05: Say, hi, I'm Josh.Nice to meet you.I do the stuff you should know.Please don't take gynecological advice from me.Yeah.No matter what comes out of my mouth at this dinner party.
SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's just a smart thing to say.
SPEAKER_05: it is um so this is all going on on the estrogen side uh on the testosterone side and we're gonna you know kind of bop back and forth between the two of these uh that was isolated i believe in 1935 uh in fact that's when the name testosterone got its name which is sort of the the big daddy male hormone and we'll talk about all the versions of these in a second And on its own, testosterone, you know, wasn't doing very much.But when they added estrone, which is a quote unquote female hormone, it became very powerful.And in 1939, there were a couple of guys do name, I guess one guy, sorry, Leopold Ruzicka. I don't know.There were two guys and Adolf Buttenant of Germany.They won the Nobel Prize for chemistry by working on largely testosterone, but, you know, sex hormones as a whole.And none other than Mr. Adolf Hitler was one of the early adopters when it came to testosterone treatment.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.He had low T. I meant to I meant to send you this and I'm sorry I didn't.But I turned up something that there is a in British World War Two military files.There were like a bunch of ideas of how to like basically take neutralize Hitler.And one of them was to start slipping estrogen into his food. And that over time, it would basically turn him from a maniac, murderous killer psycho to maybe a little calmer, maybe a little more feminized.And the whole idea was that if you put poison in his food, he had tasters and the tasters would die from the poison and he would know that he was being poisoned.That would not happen with estrogen.It would take place over such a long time.They wouldn't be able to taste it.
Apparently it was never even attempted or certainly not carried out, but that was someone's idea to take care of Hitler.It would have been hilarious, dude, to see that transition.Had they done that and then just to be able to look back all these years later and watch the progression.
SPEAKER_05: There's a Benny Hill sketch in there somewhere.For sure.I think so.So initially, medically speaking, the first use of testosterone was to try and cure homosexuality in males, which was a, needless to say, it spectacularly backfired because all it did was, you know, it didn't alter any orientation.It just created, I guess, super tops and power bottoms and ramped up the sex drive.
SPEAKER_06: Oh, my God.
SPEAKER_05: And then, of course, trans people, this was, you know, very early in the days of hormone therapy for trans people.It was actually going on.And in fact, we we did a whole episode in April 2019 called Michael Dillon Trans Pioneer about the Englishman who was, I mean, I think probably the first person, at least from the female to male transition to use that hormone in 1940.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, definitely was from what we could tell.
SPEAKER_05: And, by the way, if you go back and listen to that episode, if you're like, oh, my goodness, we heard from listeners.We goofed up the pronouns on that one because we thought – and this was five years ago.We know better now.But we thought it would be a good idea to sort of let the pronouns follow the journey of Michael Dillon's life.Yeah, I forgot about that.We know better now, so just take that with a grain of salt.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, good COA.And while we're on that, we should probably say – We're using male and female and man and woman just generally as shorthand, biological shorthand.With the advent of trans people, there's a much more specific way of talking about that.Specifically, we should be saying typically developing assigned male at birth or assigned female at birth people who haven't altered their hormones, right?Yeah. That's tough to say over and over again rather than man or woman.So please forgive us for that.We're not being disrespectful in that way, and we're certainly not excluding trans people from this because this very much has a lot to do with trans.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and that'll come in part two, obviously.
SPEAKER_03: For sure.I say we take a break and come back and we'll start talking about estrogen.
SPEAKER_05: Let's do it.
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SPEAKER_05: All right.So we're back with estrogen.Welcome to the studio, Estrogen.How have you been doing?So that is usually you think of estrogen as one of the two female sex hormones with progesterone. And it is actually a family of three hormones, the first one being estrone.And that is the that's not the money estrogen.That's the weakest one.Menopause, you know, it keeps getting produced through menopause.
SPEAKER_03: Right.
SPEAKER_05: It's made in the adrenal glands.It's made in the ovaries.It's made in fatty tissue.And it can actually serve as a sort of a warehouse keeping place for estrogen.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, for sure.So here's where we get to the idea that it's just misguided to think estrogen is a woman's sex hormone and that's it.There's so much more to it.The whole reason you would continue producing estrogen as a woman in some form or fashion after menopause, I mean, if you're not having sex, if you can't reproduce any longer, why would you produce estrogen?You would produce a weaker version because it's still doing other things.Like it's really important for bone growth growth. muscle development and to keep yourself active.There's a lot of stuff that estrogen does just beyond forming the reproductive system or for sexing females.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.And we also did mention, and this is probably if someone wants more quote unquote proof, estrogen is found in plants like rice.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, we could just end the podcast right here.
SPEAKER_05: Testosterone is not found in plants, only in the animal world, but we'll get to that.All right, the next one we come to, that was E1, by the way.E2 is estradiol, which is, this is the money estrogen.This is the potent one.This is made in the ovaries of women and made in the testes of men.What?Because, once again, men and women both have each in different levels.Mm-hmm. And this is the one that really like kicks in during puberty and then takes a break during menopause.Not a break, but more like a retirement.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it goes to Florida.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_03: Maybe.Yeah, Florida.Sure.For once, I'm just going to stick with my original one.
SPEAKER_06: Good.
SPEAKER_03: Estriol is another one.This one is mostly produced during pregnancy to help the uterus grow.And it also helps with breastfeeding.It leads to most of the body changes during pregnancy.You can thank estriol for that.And there are other types of estrogen, but typically it's those three.Those are the big ones. And it's obviously, everyone knows, estrogen is the reason that you have breasts and that your hips fill out and that it has a lot to do with a woman's monthly cycle, right?And that's absolutely true.That has a lot to do with everything.
Like, that's what estrogen does.But it is, again, it's important for metabolizing muscles, for preventing your muscles from injury.It also contributes to endurance, which... If you read about ultra marathons, women tend to dominate those.I was reading about like short runs.Men can outrun women very easily.Marathons, typically men win.But then as you get further and further and further, and actually there's a moment, I think it's like 150 miles or some mind-boggling amount of distance. Women start to slowly overtake men.And then the longer you go, the further ahead women finish before men in tests of endurance like that.
And they think it's because they have higher stores of estrogen, which is helping their muscles work better.
SPEAKER_05: So you also talked about good for, like, you know, muscle growth and muscle formation.Sure.Also, estrogen can help facilitate brain activity, skin elasticity.Yeah.Which, you know, is that why, like, wrinkles happen as you age?Is that because of drop, among other things, in estrogen?Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: I would think so.I think it's also just they've been around the block so many times.Like skin, I mean.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.So if you're a doctor, Dr. Clark.
SPEAKER_03: Well, no, okay.
SPEAKER_05: Doc, why am I going wrinkly around the eyes here?What's going on physiologically with my body?You know, it's been around the block.
SPEAKER_03: It makes sense.
SPEAKER_05: What more can I say?And also, don't take any gynecological advice from me.Right.
SPEAKER_03: They'd be like, I thought you were a dermatologist.Oh, I'm neither.
SPEAKER_05: Oh, boy.So, estrogen is something that can affect mood.But, you know, it fluctuates.I think premenopausal women have a range of about 30 to 40 picograms per milliliter, but it varies from person to person.And then, like we said, it rises and falls during the menstrual cycle.It's not like a set number.I think postmenopausal, that drops all the way down from literally zero to 30.And then for men, for guys like you and me.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
SPEAKER_05: We have a range of about 10 to 50.I'm probably more like 55 or 60 would be my guess.
SPEAKER_03: So I'm right there with you, buddy.So, again, the reason why men would have it at all is because it's not just a woman's sex or a female sex hormone.It does other stuff.Just just I can't say this enough because it was such a. Sure you can.Like it was a it was such an epiphany for me. I'm just like, oh, I had no idea that it was this, that things overlap this much.
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I didn't think it was just like cut and dry, but I knew there was some crossover, but I didn't realize just how much Steinbach screwed us up with that whole binary thing.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I was trying to make a joke about a pop act that crossed over, but I couldn't come up with it.Someone send in a good joke there.
SPEAKER_03: How about Beyoncé?
SPEAKER_05: I heard about that.Did you hear it?Is it good?
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's fine.I'm not huge in the country.
SPEAKER_05: So it's real country then, huh?
SPEAKER_03: No, it's like dance floor line dancing.Yeah, sure.It is real country.Yes.But it's not like it's not like Hank or anything like that.But it's like it's more like Garth.It's like a Garth Brooks song.
SPEAKER_05: Oh, geez.I need to hear it.I thought it was more just like, hi, I'm Beyonce and I put on a cowboy hat.
SPEAKER_03: So now she's from Texas.You know, she knows what she's talking about.Yeah, that's true.
SPEAKER_05: Can we talk about the Big T?
SPEAKER_03: Please don't quote me on that.I'm not in the Bayhive either.
SPEAKER_05: I went to that concert.It was great.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I'll bet.
SPEAKER_05: Can we talk about the Big T?
SPEAKER_03: Oh, we're here, huh?
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.I mean, we're going to go back and forth, but T is ready to speak, I think.
SPEAKER_03: Before we do, I want to say one other thing about estrogen.It apparently encourages physical movement.And you're like, so?Like with low estrogen, your will to get up and move or walk across the room or go take a walk is depleted because your estrogen is lower.It's as simple as that.Isn't that nuts?
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: That's cool.So yes, now we're on to T. That's right.
SPEAKER_05: The male hormone.
SPEAKER_03: In part, yes.And that's no joke.Like, for sure, estrogen helps form females.Testosterone helps form males.And apparently, in the uterus, they're both exposed to copious amounts of testosterone.It's just what differentiates females from males or keeps females from developing into males.Because I didn't know this either, Chuck.We all start out as females, right? Did you know that?
SPEAKER_05: I think we talked about that in our puberty episode.
SPEAKER_03: Okay, so just bear with me for a second.We all start out as females, and then we're all kind of inundated with testosterone.But females typically have something called aromatase. which is an enzyme that converts testosterone into estrogen, much more prevalent in the placenta with the fetus.And so it's basically like batting away all the testosterone.So the baby comes out assigned female at birth.Pretty interesting, huh?Like without the injection of testosterone, we would all be females.Or without the presence of aromatase, we would all be males.Yeah.
SPEAKER_05: That's right.And then once things are, you know, I guess what, that's around the seventh week or so?
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, something like that.
SPEAKER_05: That's when the testicles start to produce testosterone.That's when the factory opens up.And I don't think we mentioned, but testosterone is a member of a family of androgen hormones.Boy, should we even try and say these or just say the shorthand?
SPEAKER_03: I want to say them.
SPEAKER_05: Knock yourself out.
SPEAKER_03: Androstenedione.Man, I practiced.Androstenedione.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I think that's right.
SPEAKER_03: Dehydroepiandrosterone, also known as DHEA.Sure.Dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate, DHEAS.And then dihydrotestosterone, DHT.Yeah, nice work.Thanks.
SPEAKER_05: You get to move on in our medical competition.You could be a doctor.
SPEAKER_03: But I'm not, so don't listen to me for gynecological advice.
SPEAKER_05: Never, never, or any medical advice.Sure. So, like I said, the testosterone factory is open at about seven weeks.And the reason we went back and kind of named the others is because some of that testosterone at that age is converted into the DHEA, right?
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
SPEAKER_05: I'm not going to say it.And that is... Sort of the money hormone for making the penis form and grow in the prostate.And about seven months in is when the trigger is kicked off by testosterone for testicular descent, even though that can happen after you're born.
SPEAKER_03: It makes a hilarious boo sound.Oh, man.Where's your slide whistle?I don't have it on me.Maybe Jerry will work it in.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.I think you actually isolated some slide whistle cuts.
SPEAKER_03: Don't tell everybody.I know.Here's one of the facts of the podcast to me.I had no idea about this.So male babies are flooded with testosterone.They don't have a bunch of aromatase to convert all of it into estrogen. So they become male and all the stuff that you just mentioned happens.But they do have some aromatase.And some of that testosterone is converted into estradiol.And that estradiol actually is what forms the male brain.
So, estrogen forms the male brain.It starts out as testosterone, converted into estradiol.It causes the changes in the brain that create the male brain.
SPEAKER_05: Whatever, Snowflake.
SPEAKER_03: I just think that's awesome.Like, it also just goes to show you, like, just how.So, I mean, just imagine what an intricate chemical dance this is and how you just adjust this a little bit and adjust that a little bit.And all sorts of different outcomes can happen.It's just fascinating.
SPEAKER_05: Oh, for sure.I mean, when you're a little kid, there's not a lot of difference between your testosterone levels if you're a little girl, a little boy.I think usually under 10 nanograms per deciliter.It's at puberty where things just go hog wild.
SPEAKER_03: Right.
SPEAKER_05: And little boys' testosterone just shoots through the roof.It rises in girls as well, but nothing like it does in boys.Once you become a big man, a full-grown man like us... You're going to have T levels between 300 and 1,000 if you have quote-unquote normal T. Women have much lower levels between 15 and 70.And this is, you know, in little boys, it's what's going to trigger your voice to change, your bone and muscle mass to grow.All of a sudden, you're going to have body hair and facial hair and stuff like that. And also, and I think we've talked about this at some point, but it is related to male pattern baldness, but I don't think they're still at the level where they can say like, hey, if you have high teeth and you're more likely to be bald.
SPEAKER_03: Yes, and that's really, really important to point out, dude, is that we are not at a place in microbiology or human chemistry where we're like, this is what this hormone does and this is what that hormone does.And one of the reasons why is because the same hormone can have – wildly different effects depending on at what stage in a reaction it comes in or in what tissues or what regions of the brain or the body it's interacting with other things.And so when you add all these different, not just other kinds of hormones, but also like neurotransmitters and neuromodulators and all this stuff, it just becomes exponentially more complicated and complex.So we're still kind of at the place where it's like, yeah, testosterone's for boys and estrogen's for girls.And we're making tons of headway, but generally speaking, we're still at a very basic level in understanding what hormones are capable of.And then also on the flip side, looking at behavior and saying like, oh, well, clearly aggression is related to high levels of testosterone.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and we'll get to that coming up in a sec for sure.
SPEAKER_03: When?
SPEAKER_05: There have been lots of studies.Well, we need to talk about testosterone dropping over the years because men don't experience like a drop off in testosterone like women do with menopause and estrogen. It does decline in both men and women testosterone by about a percentage a year starting in your 30s, sort of early to mid 30s generally, although that can vary as well.And it can vary just from time to time to a man's level of testosterone can can go up or down fairly dramatically for different reasons over short periods of time.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.And just like with estrogen, testosterone is also responsible for bone growth and development and remodeling.Apparently, the testosterone is useful for the hard outer layers of the bone and estrogen is for the spongy interior layers.It's cool.And also something else that stood out to me is men's estrogen levels are roughly similar to women's testosterone levels under normal circumstances.Yeah.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I guess so, right?
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think it's pretty interesting.
SPEAKER_05: I'm looking at the numbers.
SPEAKER_03: Do they add up?
SPEAKER_05: Well, you were talking about aggression.I mean, should we take a break and talk about that or should we wait?
SPEAKER_03: I say we take a break now.
SPEAKER_05: The monkey's already flown the coop.Right.All right.The monkey's out of the bag.The cat is out of the cage.We'll be right back.
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SPEAKER_03: Okay, Chuck, so we're back.We found the cat, put him in the cradle with the silver spoon, so everything's back to normal.
SPEAKER_05: Saddest song.
SPEAKER_03: Oh, it is.It is pretty sad, especially if you like your dad.
SPEAKER_05: Especially if you had problems with your dad.
SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah, I guess so.I guess so.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, is there any circumstance where that wouldn't be a sad song?
SPEAKER_05: I don't know.Maybe the perfect amount of care and love from your father with no accompanying abuse.Gotcha.Perfect.I don't know.
SPEAKER_03: I'm sure that's very prevalent.Yeah.So, yeah, we're talking about testosterone.We're talking about sex. We're talking about aggression.All of those things seem to be very much intertwined in the public consciousness about testosterone, right?The more testosterone you have, the more Stallone-esque you are, the more likely you are to wear like a floor-length mink coat with no shirt underneath.Which I have to say, if I could wear that, I definitely would if I could rock that look.It's a good look.
SPEAKER_05: And Josh, I think if you remember, I wore that exact coat in the movie, in my film, Nighthawks. Is that what that was from?I think he wore a mink coat in Nighthawks.Okay.Although he was a cop in Nighthawks.He couldn't afford a mink coat.
SPEAKER_03: No way.Not on a cop salary.Not an honest cop.
SPEAKER_05: Underrated movie.So is it?Yeah.I don't know if it holds up great, but I thought it had a pretty good ending.We won't spoil.
SPEAKER_03: No, no, and it's definitely spoilable for sure.
SPEAKER_05: And that was my Stallone, by the way.People were just like, what are you even talking about?Why did Chuck slur there for a little while?
SPEAKER_03: I thought it came through loud and clear.
SPEAKER_05: Okay, good.
SPEAKER_03: But the idea is that the whole reason the Rambo films were made, particularly two and three, is because Sylvester Stallone experienced a massive spike in testosterone and had to get it out in some productive way, right?
SPEAKER_05: Oh, I thought it was because Rambo was no expendable. I haven't seen those movies.Huh?No, no, no.That was a joke from Rainbow 2.
SPEAKER_03: Oh, well, he was also in The Expendables.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I know.I wonder if that had anything to do with that line.Probably not.Could be.
SPEAKER_03: At any rate, I'm sure some people are like, shut up and talk about aggression and testosterone.You're making me aggressive.
SPEAKER_05: Well, what if you neuter a male dog?That's a good sort of first example.
SPEAKER_03: That's a great entree, Chuck.Most people would say that if you neuter, if you remove the testicles of a male dog, it's going to become much more submissive, much chiller, probably a lot more fun at parties.We'll come pick you up if your car breaks down, that kind of thing. And there is some data that shows that that's the case, that some dogs are calmer once they're neutered.But the other studies have shown like the exact opposite is true, that dogs can become actually more aggressive when they're neutered, which is a head scratcher of a puzzler, if you ask me.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.I mean, I just went through this with Gibson and he's not more aggressive because that's a aggressive is a weird word because aggressive isn't the same thing as like, you know.Heeper?No, just like a excitable puppy.Like that's not aggression necessarily.Yeah.But it definitely did not chill him out at all.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.Yeah.I don't know that it's supposed to, but yeah, I think some people think it does.But the idea that it would make a dog more aggressive.So it had like no impact on him as far as like his energy level went is what you're saying. Yeah.So imagine if he was generally like that before and then you neutered him and then he started like biting people.Yeah, for sure.That's what happens with some dogs.And they're like, well, that doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
One of the explanations is, is that we think testosterone is tied up with confidence more than aggression. And that a dog that has this chemical confidence removed through neutering can actually become more nervous and nervous dogs frequently will bite or bark more than they did when they had confidence via testosterone.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.And that make that ties in perfectly to the fact that and this to me is one of the facts of the show.But they have done studies and male athletes like, you know, superior male athletes, actors, believe it or not, blue collar workers and confidence artists, con men.They all have above average levels of testosterone.Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: So there you have it.Right.Case closed.So, too, though, and this is the state of study right now with studying the stuff where we're relating human behavior to hormones like testosterone or estrogen.Like there's results like that out there.But we arrive at the question, well, wait a minute, do hormones. Right.Right.Right.Right.
Right. But that still raises the question, do higher levels of testosterone make you more prone to antisocial violent behavior?Or does being in prison raise your levels of testosterone?We still don't know at this point.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.Yeah.It's pretty interesting because I think a lot of people like the general just old way of thinking was like, of course it does.Right.
SPEAKER_03: And what they're finding, they think, is that it's more that testosterone is released when you need it. Yeah, it meets the occasion.Right.It's not the thing that's driving the behavior.It's like, oh, this guy says it's go time.We better release some testosterone to keep it going.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.This next thing is super interesting to me.You know, moment to moment throughout your day, your testosterone is going to rise and fall some.
SPEAKER_06: Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_05: And they have found that if you lose like a running race or a one-on-one or a basketball game or an arm wrestling match or even a chess match, you will lose testosterone.So it's not even necessarily can be something as cerebral as a chess match, but losing reduces your testosterone, winning increases and boost your testosterone.And they even found, this is crazy to me, that they sampled male voters for like an election and just your candidate losing causes a drop in testosterone.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, isn't that nuts? That was among McCain voters because it was the 2008 election.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: It's crazy.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it's unbelievable, like winning and losing, even if you're not participating other than voting.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so they also found that they think that social expectations can kind of modulate behavior, right?And this kind of ties into that idea that testosterone kind of helps foster a response rather than triggering a response, right?Right. So essentially what they found is that with testosterone levels, we can correlate it as far as if you're faced with a fight or flight situation and you choose to fight, you probably are experiencing an uptick in testosterone levels. Again, you didn't have testosterone and now you're choosing to fight.They think the exact opposite is true, that you've chosen to fight and your testosterone levels go up.On the other hand, they found that if you choose to flee or, say, not be aggressive, your cortisol levels, your stress hormone levels increase.So our response... seems to be based on what we think society will either reward or punish.And then based on our decision from that, our hormones kick in to help kind of carry out whichever response we decide to go with.
So one other thing that I found was that that surprised me is that testosterone isn't just made in like the testes or the ovaries, depending on your sex assigned at birth, but that it's actually made locally in the brain. And that testosterone can also be transformed into different types of estrogen in the brain too.And they think that locally produced is what it's called.Testosterone in like our neural pathways has much more of an effect on behavior, mood, that kind of stuff than the stuff that's made in the testes or the ovaries. And that actually accounts for some of the baffling results we've gotten where, you know, if you take a blood sample of somebody and find that they were just being aggressive, but their blood doesn't show any kind of spike in testosterone, well, that would account for that because it's not the stuff that's floating around in their blood that's making them do that.It's the locally produced testosterone in their brain that's, you know, connecting with their amygdala or something like that that's helping them, their aggressiveness, I guess, along.
SPEAKER_05: And now I know everyone wants to get to the part about sex and what testosterone does there.And testosterone does, you know, sort of directly ramp up the sex drive in men and women.And they have done trials where they have shown that it increases the libido, but testosterone. Just because your T falls doesn't necessarily mean it's going to decrease your libido.It can, but it doesn't mean it has to.Right.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, again, there's baffling results we get sometimes from just studies of what we presume has to do with testosterone or estrogen, and it just doesn't quite jive.
SPEAKER_05: All right.So I guess now we can sort of finish up with some talk of intersex people and where we stand now with hormone therapy, right?
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, because one group, there's a lot of different people besides postmenopausal or perimenopausal women who take hormone replacement therapy.Intersex people, people who are born with ambiguous genitalia, because like we mentioned, that whole amazingly intricate dance of chemicals and hormones during development.Fetal development can just take one step to the left or one step to the right.And all of a sudden, there's just a different outcome.That happens to some people.And some people take hormone replacement therapy to... either become more like the gender they presume that they would have been assigned at birth or the gender that they feel like they were assigned at birth, but their genitalia doesn't quite match.There's a lot of different outcomes that are basically considered conditions that you can kind of help alleviate with hormone replacement.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, for sure.Another one, and I'm pretty sure we talked about this in our female puberty episode, was starting in the 1940s and maybe even before that, estrogen therapy and hormone treatment could help.Basically, what they would say, like, you know, you don't want your daughter to grow too tall. So they would use a hormone blocker.You don't see that as much today.It was called precocious puberty, which is still a thing that can happen, I think, if you enter puberty.I think it's like a year or two or what's considered too early or just outside of the normal range.You can also use these hormone-blocking drugs regularly. I mean, they still use them today, but it's not like so you don't grow too tall.It's basically just to save off puberty and to halt precocious puberty in its tracks.
Also, if you are a trans kid, you can use a hormone blocker to just sort of hit the pause button to give you a little time to decide what kind of puberty to go through.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, because once you go through puberty, particularly if you think it was the wrong puberty for the gender you identify with, there are going to be changes that are essentially irreversible aside from surgery.Like if you go through female puberty, but you're a trans male, you're still going to have breasts that have to be removed.Or if you're a trans woman and you went through male puberty, your vocal cords are going to think you're going to have a deeper voice and maybe an Adam's apple.Surgery will have to remove that.That's how powerful the hormones that get released and the amounts that they get released in during puberty.So if you're not quite sure which gender you belong to yet, Using hormone blockers can actually help, like you said, buy you some time until you figure out which way you want to go.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and as far as testosterone therapy goes, if you have a deficiency in testosterone because of hypogonadism or maybe from HIV or something like that, it's obviously going to help with that.Also problems like – and here's where it gets a little tricky – depression, low muscle mass, low energy.There is some evidence that it can improve sexual function, but not as much that it can increase your low energy if you're just – sort of losing testosterone at that normal rate of like one, what was it?
SPEAKER_03: I can't remember the... 1% a year, I think.
SPEAKER_05: Is it 1%?Yeah, 1% a year.But if you have an actual deficiency, they've shown that it can improve sexual function and just don't have as much proof with energy level.
SPEAKER_03: So does that mean that the ad that has Frank Thomas and Doug Flutie in it talking about how they're like crushing their workouts that actually doesn't work?
SPEAKER_05: Well, I don't know if they're just saying if they're claiming they just have a natural decline in age or if they had a deficiency to begin with, because that's that seems to be the differentiating factor.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, for sure.Yeah.Who knows?
SPEAKER_05: I mean, let's call up Doug Flutie and.
SPEAKER_03: Let's get him on the horn.Exactly.You got anything else?
SPEAKER_05: No, I got nothing else.
SPEAKER_03: I got nothing else either.This is a very enlightening podcast episode, I should say.A lot of stuff I didn't know about, and now I know more.And you still shouldn't take my advice, medically speaking.
SPEAKER_05: Never.
SPEAKER_03: Since Chuck said never after a nice hearty chuckle, that means it's time for listener mail.
SPEAKER_05: Hey guys, I was turned on your show about six months ago and have been rapidly consuming multiple episodes each day, going back and forth to work.I heard the School Bus Yellow episode this morning and thought you might not have found this little nugget.You pointed out Mr. Cyr was credited with the standardization.I believe you also noted some other districts had already turned to bright paint jobs on school buses.But on March 23rd, 1931, the Pleasant Hill tragedy near Towner, Colorado, was because it had a blizzard that came in that morning.The school shut down, sent the kids home, and one of the school buses ran off the road, stuck in the snow for 30-plus hours, resulting in the death of five of the 20 students and the bus driver.
SPEAKER_03: Oh, my God.
SPEAKER_05: The aftermath theorized that a brightly painted school bus would have been much easier to spot in the whiteout and might not have sat waiting so long to be found, so buses in Colorado adopted the yellow standard by 1939 And the proposal for Mr. Sire became a national standard.Unfortunately, it was a reactive, not proactive solution brought on by a spring blizzard on the plains of eastern Colorado.That is from John Colts.And I was just curious, John didn't say, I guess that school bus might have been white?I would think so. Yeah, not a great color.
SPEAKER_03: No, no, for sure.Thanks a lot, John.That was a really amazing email.Never heard of that one.It's terrible.If you want to bring us down terribly like John did, you can send us an email.Wrap it up, spank it on the bottom, and send it off to stuffpodcasts at iheartradio.com.
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