What was the Skeleton Army?

SPEAKER_08: Amazon wants to help you share joy this holiday season. And as we all know, the holidays are all about these joyful moments. That's right. I remember when my family drove up to Helen, Georgia when I was a kid SPEAKER_06: and bought one of those very first Cabbage Patch Kids for my sister. This was way ahead of the nationwide craze. This may have been one of the first hundred or so of these dolls that were ever made, actually. And of course, it was a huge hit. She still has it all these many years later to this day. And you know what? I hope one day the gods will smile on me and I can find something like that for a loved one before it breaks out. It's these types of moments that Amazon helps create during the holidays. SPEAKER_08: However you share joy, make it happen with Amazon. The one thing we can never get more of is time. SPEAKER_01: Or can we? This is Watson X Orchestrate. AI designed to multiply productivity by automating tasks. When you Watson X your business, you can build digital skills to help human resources spend less time generating offer letters, writing job recs and managing schedules, and spend more time on humans. Let's create more time for your business with Watson X Orchestrate. Learn more at ibm.com slash orchestrate. IBM. Let's create. SPEAKER_06: Hey everybody, we want to let you know that we are doing our traditional Pacific Northwest swing for our live show next year. In fact, the end of January next year, very early next year. We're starting out in Seattle, Washington on January 24th at the Paramount Theater. SPEAKER_08: It's huge. That's right. Then on to Portland on January 25th at Revolution Hall, the place we always are. It's kind of our home away from home in Portland. Then we're going to wrap it all up at the thing that started the Pacific Northwest tour in the first place all those years back, SF Sketchfest. We'll be at the Sidney Goldstein Theater on Friday, January 26th. Right, Chuck? SPEAKER_06: That's right. Remember, you can go to stuffyoushouldknow.com, click on tours in order to get to the correct ticket link or go to the venue page only. Do not go to scalper sites. That's right. SPEAKER_08: And we'll see you guys in January. Okay? SPEAKER_04: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. SPEAKER_08: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck. And well, I was going to say Jerry's here, but that would be a dirty, filthy lie. True. She's not here. It's you and me, Chuck. Yeah, I was about to say just like the old days, but Jerry was around from the beginning. SPEAKER_06: I wasn't around from the beginning. Man, so I guess this is a periodical situation we find ourselves in, just like the periodical SPEAKER_08: situation. SPEAKER_06: Can I say a couple of quick things here? Yes. First of all, I want to congratulate listener Corey Wegner because this topic is a very good one. SPEAKER_08: Nice. Way to go, Corey. SPEAKER_06: Yeah. Listener suggestion, which is great. And also want to officially welcome Mr. Gibson Bryant into the family, the new puppy. Oh, yeah, he's cute. He's cute. Gibson was being fostered through the Lifeline organization that we work with a lot here in Atlanta. And foster mom Rachel was just wonderful and Gibson's little coonhound shepherd mix. And he's awesome. And it's great. So far, so good. He's just that he and the cats, they got to work it out so far. It's not great. SPEAKER_06: Oh, no. So it just takes a little time. I figure, you know, a week or two usually is based on like when we've dog sat other dogs because the cats love dogs, our dogs. But like a new dog comes in and they're like, yeah, they've got to he has to prove himself SPEAKER_08: to them. SPEAKER_06: Yeah, they just got to, you know, they got to work it out. It'll take a little time, but he's a very sweet boy. He's fitting right in. He looks like it. SPEAKER_08: I guess you've posted pictures on your Instagram page. SPEAKER_06: Yeah, Gibson's on there. Chuck the podcaster, if you want to check out this handsome little leggy boy. SPEAKER_08: Nice. Well, welcome, Gibson. Congratulations. Yeah, to the stuff you should know family. The stuff you should know army. SPEAKER_08: Uh, see where this is going. It is. I normally would have just left it at yes, the stuff you should know family. But the reason the stuff you should know army ties into this because we're talking about armies, but fake armies. And believe it or not, the stuff you should know army is a fake army. Oh, really? There's not a lot of like international conflict or killing or shooting a machine guns with the stuff you should know army. So yes, I would say it's a fake army. Well, what's the very definition of army? SPEAKER_06: I don't even know. A group that engages in international conflicts and kills and shoots machine guns. SPEAKER_08: Actually, well, no, it could be a large number of people organized for a purpose, like an SPEAKER_06: army of photographers. I guess so. SPEAKER_08: I think those are called gaggles though. Okay. He's in the photographers. Okay. No offense meant, of course, to our great people at the stuff you should know army because they're the greatest. Yeah. So there are other armies whose patterns of killing are questionable at best. And that includes both the Salvation Army, but less so the Skeleton Army. Because if any of the groups I've just mentioned just now bore the closest resemblance to an army, it would be the Skeleton Army. Probably. And this is one I had not even heard of until Corey Wegner sent this in. SPEAKER_06: Same. And so, yeah, I just thought we should dive in a little bit on the Salvation Army first, probably, right? Yeah. I'm sure people are like, well, guys, what are you talking about with the Salvation Army? SPEAKER_08: Just wait. Hold your horses, please. Yeah, you've probably heard of the Salvation Army. SPEAKER_06: They are, I mean, they're an international organization at this point, right? Yes. They have been doing it since the 1870s, I believe. SPEAKER_08: Late 1870s. And their mission is to basically combat poverty where it's at. Like, they go to where poverty is at. And apparently, in the United States alone, they serve 23 million people a year. So they're doing some significant work. And I don't want to walk past the fact that they're also a pretty controversial organization, especially today. They're a Christian organization, a Protestant Christian organization, and they're doing a Protestant Christian organization at its core from their founding. So they have sometimes unfriendly views or have held unfriendly views toward LGBTQ plus community. And now they've kind of revised it to say like, yeah, we don't mind. Just don't tell us that you're gay. You can come work with us anytime you want. And that's not quite enough. But at the same time, there's people who are on the conservative Christian right who are like, that's too far. So the Salvation Army finds itself in a very ticklish position right now. And that doesn't have anything to do with this particular episode, but I think it'd be kind of disingenuous to just not mention that at all. SPEAKER_06: They were founded by a gentleman named George Booth. He was born in England in Nottingham in 1829 and was a Methodist preacher at first. And the picture I get of George Booth from reading up on him is that he, from the start, was a bit of a rabble-rouser within the church as far as like, he was in the street preaching. He was frustrated with the formalities of the church, the hierarchies of the church. Probably felt like the church isn't helping the people that are most in need. Was maybe a little too disconnected from poverty and the real people out on the streets. And so that was sort of his, it seems like he was charged from the beginning, like within himself, to do something bigger than just be a standard Methodist preacher. Brian Yeah, exactly. SPEAKER_08: Yeah, I get the impression you kind of touched on it that he probably viewed the church as an institution as really detached from the people who needed its help most. So he started an organization. He decided to kind of go help people where they're at. So he started street preaching, apparently based on American revivalists of the early 19th century. And like, he would just stand on the street corner and preach and so too would his wife. This is a time where if you were super religious like this and you said women can preach too and let's go help the poor directly. That was deeply progressive at the time in England. England was so ridiculously stodgy conservative that I read about a magazine that in its inaugural edition promised that it would do nothing to help along this morbid desire for change, that they were just going to keep things exactly the way that they were. And that's what the establishment wanted. People like George Booth are like, that's not working for a whole huge segment of society. Brian Yeah, his wife, Catherine Mumford, SPEAKER_06: when they married, played a big part in this whole story actually. So you can kind of put a, no, don't put a pin in her. She's there. Brian I can see the skeleton army putting a pin in her. SPEAKER_08: Brian No pin necessary or maybe flinging a dead rat her way. SPEAKER_06: Brian So in 18, as the story goes at least, in 1878, he was dictating a letter and he said the Christian mission is a volunteer army, capital C, capital M. And then he said, no, no, no, strike that and perhaps struck it himself and crossed out volunteer and wrote down salvation, a salvation army. And that was sort of, you know, Salvation Army is so ubiquitous, especially around Christmas time in the United States when they, you will, people I think generally sort of associate Salvation Army with either dropping off clothes and toys that you don't want at a Salvation Army store or buying things from a Salvation Army store or around Christmas when they have Santa Clauses ringing that bell with that kettle outside and they are asking people to donate their spare change or what have you. Brian Yes. And if, you know, by Christmas time you get annoyed at that ringing SPEAKER_08: of the bell that you hear all the time, count your lucky stars that you weren't born in England in the 1870s because you would have been super annoyed by the Salvation Army at that time. Brian Yeah, absolutely. And that was sort of my deal with the Salvation Army. That's how I knew SPEAKER_06: them. And I knew they did, you know, obviously a lot of charitable works, but I didn't really ever stop to think about the whole army thing, the military aspect, because when I earlier said like an army can be just a collection of people, that wasn't how they meant it. Like they meant it as in, you know, not we're going to take up arms, but they gave themselves, they wore uniforms, they gave themselves military ranks. Booth named himself the general. And it became like, I think their newspaper was called the War Cry. Their initiation creed were called the Articles of War. So they really sort of, I don't want to say leaned into, I'm really trying to stop saying that. Brian They were army forward. SPEAKER_08: Brian Yeah, they were very army forward in a sort of militaristic sense. But again, not like, hey, SPEAKER_06: we're going to, you know, start a real war. But they were just like, we're warriors for Christ, basically. Brian Yeah, to be initiated, you had to kill a man with your bare hands. SPEAKER_08: They were pretty serious about the army thing. But the reason that they were so into the army, that was part of the zeitgeist at the time. This is the Victorian age, the English empire is at its peak at the time. And the English empire got that way because of the military. So the military is highly regarded. So it kind of made sense to kind of go with that. It'd be like today, hmm, oh boy, it'd be like fashioning yourself after the Swifties. If you were founding like a new rescue mission organization. Brian I wouldn't mess with them. Brian No, you would not. So he had, he established this in pretty short order. He started to use the Salvation Army to just, it was set up to achieve his aims. And his aims we kind of touched on a little bit, but they're pretty straightforward. The biggest one really is if you want to help poor people, go to the poor people and help them directly. That's how you help poor people. That's just what you have to do. You have to get your hands dirty as it was. That was pretty much the foundation of the Salvation Army. From what I can tell, it's a big part of it still today. Brian Yeah, absolutely. Which is great. Their mantra was soup, soap, salvation. In other words, SPEAKER_06: help feed the poor, help, I mean, soap. I don't think they literally meant to help clean them, but they may have. Just sort of to, I think that sort of stood for lift people out of poverty and also bring them to Christ. I mean, that was a big part of it. We can't ignore that. Brian To who? Brian Say what? Brian Bring them to who? Brian Christ, Jesus Christ. SPEAKER_08: Brian Oh, Jesus Christ, I got you. Brian Do you think I meant Jimmy Christ? SPEAKER_06: Brian Billy Christ. Brian Is that your last name? Brian I don't think so. SPEAKER_08: Brian I think Chris would be. Brian You can't run out of town on a rail. SPEAKER_06: Brian How it's pronounced, people would say Chris these days, right? Brian Sure. Brian Sure. Brian I mean, that's got to be a last name. C-H-R-I-S-T. Brian Yes. If we have any listeners out there who, that's your last name and you go by Christ, SPEAKER_08: please write in. We want to hear all about your life. Brian Yeah, especially if it's Jimmy Christ. I would love to know you. And another big part, SPEAKER_06: especially as it pertains to the skeleton army, who we'll learn about here in a minute, is that alcohol is bad. They were way, way into the temperance movement and alcohol was just a big, big evil. And that would factor really, really heavily into the goings on between the Salvation Army and the Skeleton Army. Brian SPEAKER_08: Yes. They also, like we said, women can preach. That was very radical, very progressive at the time. And they also were super into music. I don't, I know, I didn't see why. I guess General Booth himself was particularly into music because again, this whole, this whole organization seems like an extension of him and his wife as well. I don't want to just call her that. Catherine. Brian Yeah, Catherine. Brian Catherine's views as well. I think they kind of jibed really well together. Brian They were into the same bands. Exactly. There was a quote that's often attributed to George Booth that may or may not have been said by him, but it fits. It's why should the devil have all the best tunes? And I'm pretty sure he was making a failed reference to Black Sabbath. Brian SPEAKER_06: Right. And eventually, Striper. He would have been way into Striper. SPEAKER_06: Brian I was reading about them the other day. SPEAKER_08: I can't believe I didn't tell you this. How far did you follow them? When did you leave off from Striper? Brian When did I leave the Striper army? Brian SPEAKER_06: Yes. Brian You know, as I sort of transitioned out of going to church, so that would have been like middle high school. Brian So they were still doing like the Black and Yellow? Brian SPEAKER_08: Yellow and Black Attack? Brian Yes. Brian SPEAKER_06: I think that was the name of one of their records. Yeah, I mean, they were still around. I think this was right before they had their, they had like a secular ballad hit. Brian Okay, yes. So that's, yes, SPEAKER_08: you transitioned and shortly after that, they transitioned and they left all that God stuff behind and released a couple of albums and they did not do very well. I think they were pretty surprised. They thought, well, we'll just go more mainstream. And it didn't work. They were more successful mainstream wise as a Christian forward metal band than they were as like a regular metal band. Brian SPEAKER_06: Yeah, the Sweet Brothers. Brian SPEAKER_08: Is that who they were? Brian Yeah, Michael and Matthew Sweet. Brian Like Matthew Sweet, I want you to be my girlfriend Matthew Sweet? Brian No, in fact, maybe it wasn't Matthew. Maybe SPEAKER_06: I'm conflating, but I know Michael Sweet was, I think he was the singer. SPEAKER_08: Brian Okay, Michael Sweet and then I think the drummer was Jimmy Christ. Brian SPEAKER_06: No, actually. Oh man, I remember some of those names. I don't remember. Or maybe the drummer was the other brother. I remember he played sideways. Brian Oh, did he? That's awesome. Brian Which is interesting. Brian SPEAKER_08: Do you still have the action figures? Brian SPEAKER_06: No, I don't know if I still have that record. I'll have to look through my vinyl. Brian Yeah, you do. Brian Yeah, I was into that for a little while. Brian Okay. Well, at any rate, I don't, yeah, I just, I don't remember how I was reading about SPEAKER_08: Striper, but I was reading all about their career the other day. I don't know how I stumbled on it. Brian It's easy to fall into a Striper rabbit hole if you're of a certain age. SPEAKER_06: Brian Well, I did. SPEAKER_08: Brian Yeah. Brian So, yeah, they were into music. The thing is, and they wanted to use music, not Striper, talking back about the Salvation Army, although they, Striper wanted to do the same thing. They wanted to use music to get God's message across. Brian SPEAKER_06: Absolutely. Brian SPEAKER_08: Unlike Striper, they had zero musical talent, but were very happy to be as loud as possible. So, you know the image you have of like temperance people and like kind of old like goody two shoes Christians in the 19th century banging on a huge drum singing songs about Jesus and all that? Brian Sure. Brian That is based in reality. That was the Salvation Army. And everyone who wasn't in the Salvation Army loathed them for that. Brian SPEAKER_06: Yeah, it was pretty annoying if you were enjoying a pint in a pub and the Salvation Army came around. Brian Yeah, because in addition to going to the poor, where the poor were, they figured if you SPEAKER_08: want to save sinners, go to where the sinners are. So, they would storm into pubs and start singing religious hymns at the top of their lungs, banging drums, like telling people they were going to hell. And these people are just trying to unwind, you know, after a hard day's work at the docks. Or who knows? Brian Or they had no job and they were just getting loaded. Brian Yeah, or they're celebrating a promotion at the docks. I don't know. The thing is, they did not want to hear that at the time. And even if you weren't in the pubs, just hearing them go down the street preaching all day Sunday, sometimes during the week too, they really purposefully made a nuisance of themselves because they were really assertive and hostile almost in shoving their message about salvation down everyone's throat, whether they wanted to hear it or not. Brian SPEAKER_06: All right, I think that sets the stage. Time for a break? Brian Yes. SPEAKER_08: Brian We'll be right back after this. SPEAKER_06: Brian You bet. SPEAKER_08: Brian Every person living with a rare autoimmune condition navigates their own unique journey. That's why in season two of Untold Stories, Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, a Ruby Studio production in partnership with Argenix, they are sharing even more empowering stories. Brian SPEAKER_06: That's right. From myasthenia gravis to chronic inflammatory demyelinating polyneuropathy, also known as CIDP, learn about the daily challenges and triumphs of those with these conditions. Brian Yep. Host Martine Hackett will share powerful perspectives from people living with the SPEAKER_08: debilitating muscle weakness and fatigue caused by these conditions. From early signs and symptoms to obtaining an accurate diagnosis and finding care, every person with an autoimmune condition has a story to tell. 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But Prime Video helps you find your holiday happy place. Rent or buy all of your favorites, add on hundreds of streamers, and find classics or new releases like Candy Cane Lane starring Eddie Murphy and Tracee Ellis Ross included with Prime in one app with one password. Prime Video, find your holiday happy place. Restrictions apply. See amazon.com slash amazon prime for details. SPEAKER_06: All right, so the stage is set. The Salvation Army is firmly in place and they are going around, aside from doing great things for the poor, they are going around and going to pubs and banging their pots and pans and their drums and they're singing all these religious songs and the people do not like it. So that is the sort of the position that they're in at this point. So what forms is what's called the Skeleton Army to literally combat the Salvation Army. Ed helped us out with this one and there's, I would argue that there aren't two origins. There's one origin but the sort of second part of the origin story we'll get to. Is that fair to say? SPEAKER_08: It's fair but confusing, sure. All right. SPEAKER_06: Well the first, you know, basically how they formed is what we've been talking about. They were literally just annoyed at the Salvation Army coming around telling them not to drink, singing songs and loudly preaching and disrupting their pub time. And so the initial sort of response was just cheering at them, hey why don't you sit down and have a beer, you know, that kind of thing. Being very sarcastic and then things started just to escalate sort of little by little because these were drunks basically. And when you're someone engaging a drunk and telling them not to drink, that's not going to go over too well and tempers will genuinely flare at some point. Yeah, for sure. I think we said the Salvation Army set itself up in 1878. By 1879, SPEAKER_08: the first newspaper account of a clash between the Salvation Army and people who hated the Salvation Army made it into a newspaper. I think there was an incident in Liverpool. This is not the first incident, this is just the first incident that got written up in the paper. Right. And the reason it got written up is because there was a riot, a riot. People hated what the Salvation Army was doing so much that they would often trigger riots whenever they started doing their marches. And they were roundly blamed for this. Like at the time, as we'll see, it kind of came out differently in the end, but everyone blamed them for just existing and doing what they were doing. They felt that the Salvation Army was responsible for the riots that the people who were against the Salvation Army would carry out when the Salvation Army came around. SPEAKER_06: Yeah, exactly. So, 79, like you said, was the first noted one in Liverpool. And then, you know, if you read contemporaneous accounts, which we did of the time, they just started popping up here and there. In March of 81, in the East End of London, there were some guys leaving a pub and they beat up a bunch of Salvation Army, I guess, what would they be called? Soldiers? Yeah, I think so. Okay. There were some Salvationist women, which they were SPEAKER_06: called Hallelujah Lasses was a nickname, that were entrapped with some rope by the crowd. They were getting hot coals thrown at them. And this sort of played out how it played out in most places. Things got pretty ugly when I joked about throwing dead rats at them. I wasn't kidding. That was a real thing that they did. Apparently, dead rats and live cats in at least one instance? SPEAKER_08: Yeah. There was another instance where there was a guy who was testifying during a Salvation Army meeting and 40 people with chamber pots stormed the meeting and dumped urine all over the man. That happened. They were in their own meeting. They weren't even out on the street or in a pub. That's how hated these people were. They would be physically assaulted. They would have just all sorts of stuff thrown at them in addition to dead rats, dead fish. And there were plenty of accounts of not just men, but also women and even children being assaulted by the crowds. You said the Hallelujah Lasses were basically roped with hot coals thrown at them. There was an account somewhere that said between 12 months, this would have been in the probably the early 1880s, across England, 669 Salvationists, 251 of those were women, were quote, knocked down, kicked or brutally assaulted. 56 buildings of the army were stormed and partially wrecked. That was another thing that people against the Salvation Army like to do. They like to try to burn down their meeting halls sometimes while they were in it. And then 86 Salvationists, 15 of the women were thrown in prison. So, it was a really hardcore thing to go out and do as a Salvation Army soldier. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And so, yeah, SPEAKER_06: I hope he didn't paint it as too light of a brush. Like, oh, they would just sort of yell at them and jeer at them and throw dead rats and things. It got physically violent. It was not a good scene. The Salvation Army for their part, when you mentioned the music, one thing that they were fond of was, and they still do that today in England, is they take popular songs and change the words at soccer games, at their football games. Like these old school pub sing-alongs, they would change it to their local football team or whatever. And so, the history of just changing lyrics, I mean, I say it's a little lazy, quite honestly, maybe write a new song altogether, but that's okay. Sure. But they would do that, the Salvation Army would do that. So, they would take popular pub songs, change up the lyrics to suit them in their Christian message. Ed dug up some of the titles that were pretty great. Oh, Every Land is Filled with Sin is Not Bad. My favorite is The Devil in Me, We Can't Agree, I Hate Him, and He Hates Me. Which sounds like agreement. SPEAKER_06: So, you know, that's true now that I think about it. But just this is what's going on. Like this only angered the people in the pubs even more because they're like, those are our songs. And there are, hey, let's get drunk songs that we sing together. Don't change them around and sing them in our face because, you know, I might assault you or dump urine on your head. Yeah, SPEAKER_08: there was another song that kind of gets across the Salvation Army sentiments about the places they were visiting. It's called Out of the Gutters, We Pick Them. And I read that there was resentment among a lot of the lower working class groups who were getting visited by these people being helped out with their poverty strickenness. They were like, this is my neighborhood that you're talking about and singing about is the gutter. So they managed to offend and annoy essentially everybody. And yet what was really interesting about this is that they started to grow. Like each Sunday, there'd be more and more of them and more and more of them. And their meeting halls would get bigger and bigger because there were more Salvation Army members who had joined, who had been picked out of the gutter or who had said, I'm giving up the devil drink or whatever reason, had decided to join the Salvation Army and were now the very people who were annoying their former selves. Yeah, or their friends. Man, I'll bet that was uncomfortable. Oh man. SPEAKER_06: So they had other tactics. The Salvation Army had white uniforms. So they would try and mar those uniforms in a number of ways. One is there was a narrow alley leading to one of their meeting halls and they would paint a sticky tar on the alley walls. They would throw eggs that had blue paint in them. They would then in turn sometimes take the original pub songs that they had changed Salvation Army into Christian songs back into more body versions of their Christian songs and sing them back into them and even mess with their old sort of motto, which was soup, soap. What was the third one? Salvation. Soup, soap, salvation to beer, beef, beer, and baca, which is tobacco. Which is pretty hilarious. So yeah, so people were getting creative, but it was also SPEAKER_06: truly violent at times. It was, and even if it wasn't violent, think about how annoyed you'd be SPEAKER_08: if you weren't on either side because the people who would give the greatest resistance and hostility toward the Salvation Army were the exact same people that would do this in a pub today. 20-somethings who were like already feeling pretty rowdy, probably the drunkest of the people in the pub. Imagine just being like us, Chuck, we're just trying to have like a beer in a booth. And not only is the Salvation Army going off, but now it's being doubly amplified because the other people, these hooligans are essentially pushing back just as loud, if not louder. I would just be like, shut up. Well, that's why we end up in a coffee house and then we've lost all credibility SPEAKER_06: as cool guys. We could, we end up in a coffee house and we just bring our own flasks. Right. SPEAKER_06: Oh, there you go. We just regained some credibility. Did we ever have credibility as cool guys? SPEAKER_08: I did. I don't know about you. I did not. Yeah, you did. I did not. Yeah, I'm a cool guy and I SPEAKER_06: know other cool guys. You've always been a cool guy. Man, I did not. So we should talk a little SPEAKER_06: bit about Susanna Beatty. She was a captain in the Salvation Army who died in either 1881 or 1882. And the Salvation Army will say, and there are some contemporaneous accounts too that we saw in newspapers and stuff, where she was essentially killed by the Skeleton Army. She was beaten I saw in one of the newspapers that said she was kicked in her womb. I was hoping you weren't going SPEAKER_08: to say that. That is so tough to hear. Even it is. Well, and I don't know if that implies that she SPEAKER_06: was pregnant because I didn't see that. I don't know. I think that what they were saying is she SPEAKER_08: probably had internal bleeding from, from in her abdomen from those injuries. I couldn't quite tell, SPEAKER_06: but at the, you know, at the end of the day, she was killed by the Skeleton Army, which is, you know, horrific. And the Salvation Army today names her and celebrates her as their first martyr. Also, some Skeleton Army member was killed by a cop, I think was cracked in the head with a baton. That's a Skeleton Army guy, right? Yeah, Skeleton Army guy, but this sort of thing didn't happen much in terms of the Skeleton Army and the police because it seems like the police in almost every case was anti-Salvation Army. And it looks like depending on where you were and what was going on and who the particular cop was may have even sort of helped things along or, you know, let the Skeleton Army go and maybe aided them a little bit in a lot of these riots. SPEAKER_08: Yeah, we kind of touched on it earlier that the establishment wanted things just as they were. They didn't like this progressive, hostile Christian group, like organizing the working classes, right? So they were, since they were already in charge, they were basically, if not directly, informing the courts and the police, like not to intervene against the Skeleton Army. And certainly if anything, if you're going to arrest anybody, arrest those rabble rousers, the Salvation Army. So they had no like formal structural, like protection, essentially. The cops, if they did anything, they usually arrested the Salvation Army members. Most of the time, they didn't do anything because the power structure in each town was pretty much diametrically opposed to the Salvation Army. SPEAKER_06: Yeah, absolutely. And then in that one article that you sent from back then, it seems like a lot of these counter protests, if you want to call them that, or these rioters were either brewery owners or brewery owners and their employees. So it kind of became like a literal war against temperance and alcohol. It was so heavily intertwined because these brewers were like, we don't want these people coming in here and the writing's on the wall of what's going on in America. And we're not going to have a prohibition. So the brewers and their employees are like fighting back against these people, preaching against alcohol. Yeah. And again, I don't want to like underestimate the impact that SPEAKER_08: the idea that they were organizing the working class had on scaring the upper class as well. Because at the time, if you were, you know, wealthy, if you had a title, like you were in charge. If you were working class, you were not in charge. You could just, the best you could hope for is that the wealthy would look out for you when they were making laws, which probably didn't work out very much. So that was a big part of it too. And then also even Protestants didn't like them because remember George Booth was like, I don't like this church hierarchy stuff. I'm just going to go start preaching on the corner. That was very much carried into the Salvation Army. So the Protestant churches, the Methodists in particular were like, we don't like you. The Catholics really didn't like them because there was that whole Catholic Protestant division that dated all the way back to the 16th century. So basically no one liked the Salvation Army and everyone was essentially working against them. Yeah, for sure. Depending on, SPEAKER_06: I mean, it depends on kind of where you were and who was there as to how violent this could get. If there was like a sort of a younger, more rabble-rousing preacher, a lot of times, especially if it was a woman that was coming in and leading the charge, things could escalate a little more quickly. I know there was a 23-year-old woman, a captain in the Salvation Army named Ada Smith, who was really enthusiastic and really liked to get in the faces of these dudes in the pubs. And other times, you know, it was someone who maybe wasn't quite as in your face and things didn't go quite as sideways. Apparently, if it was a tourist town or a port town, had a lot to do with it too, right? Yeah, for sure. Because if it was a tourist town, SPEAKER_08: you don't want like the Salvation Army running around telling everybody they're going to hell. That's not good for tourism. So they're actually directly affecting people's livelihoods. That's one. If it's a port town, there's probably a lot of drinking going on, so the people in the town don't want to hear that. If it was a country town, suburb of London, it was probably a little more genteel. I get the impression that the more rough and tumble the populace, the more incidents of violence the Salvation Army faced. But also, I don't want to make it sound like they weren't triggering people. They definitely were. That Captain Ada Smith you mentioned, she was in Worthing. And Worthing was essentially ground zero for riots that took place in the mid 1880s. Like straight up riots where the people were attacking the town hall because they were so upset about the Salvation Army being around. Like they were provoking people for sure. I'm not blaming them for riots, like as we'll see in a minute that they were, but they definitely were provoking people intentionally as well. Yeah, yeah for sure. Should we take another break? SPEAKER_06: Yeah. All right, we'll take our second break and we'll talk about the sort of where these guys might have come from on the Skeleton Army side to begin with. SPEAKER_08: So every person living with a rare autoimmune condition navigates their own unique journey. That's why in season two of Untold Stories, Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, a Ruby Studio production in partnership with Argenix, they are sharing even more empowering stories. That's right. From myasthenia gravis to chronic inflammatory demyelinating polyneuropathy, SPEAKER_06: also known as CIDP, learn about the daily challenges and triumphs of those with these conditions. Yep, host Martine Hackett will share powerful perspectives from people living with the SPEAKER_08: debilitating muscle weakness and fatigue caused by these conditions. 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Let's create more time for your business with Watson X Orchestrate. Learn more at ibm.com orchestrate. IBM. Let's create. SPEAKER_08: So, skeleton army is kind of this formalized term for the groups of people who essentially organize to try to beat the Salvation Army out of town, do whatever they could to get rid of them, including lots and lots of violence, and again, trying to burn down their meeting halls and stuff. And there's a historian named, I think, John Hare, who wrote an article in 1988 in Folklore that Ed found, where he basically says there's a really high likelihood that the skeleton armies actually grew out of what are called the Bonfire Boys, or Bonfire Clubs, who would celebrate the 5th of November, not the 5th of May, but the 5th of November, in the same way that people used to celebrate Devil's Night in Detroit, by just burning down everything in sight and marching and just causing trouble and getting super drunk. Yes, and as a, we'll probably do one on this in SPEAKER_06: full at some point, but remember, remember the 5th of May. We're laughing because Josh said May, and we cut it out. Yeah. Or did we leave it in? I think we cut it out. I guess we'll see. SPEAKER_06: The 5th of November goes back to, if anyone has ever seen the movie V for Vendetta. So good. With Natalie Portman. Good movie. And Guy Pearce. Yeah, of course. Or no. Yeah, it was Guy Pearce, right? No, it was the weird clone guy from The Matrix. Him. Oh. SPEAKER_08: He was, yeah, he was the dude. The Mr. Anderson. Yes. Yeah. What's that guy's name? Hugh Laurie. SPEAKER_06: In 1605, there were Catholic conspirators who tried to blow up Parliament because that would have killed the Protestant King James I and hoped that there would be a Catholic king to fill that role, to fill that power vacuum. That's a great point. And England would be, you know, back to being a Catholic nation after the split from, in 1534 that you talked about earlier, that King Henry VIII brought about. Yep. So remember, remember the 5th of November, every November 5th, there was, and I believe still is, just a lot of sort of celebrations, big parties, big bonfires. They would light tar barrels on fire. It got pretty rowdy. And like you said, they were called the bonfire clubs. And there are historians, and namely that one guy you talked about, who basically say these guys were still around in the 1870s and 1880s. And there's a lot of evidence that kind of shows that they were probably also like, hey, we've got pitchforks, we've got torches, we have the same sort of anti-establishment attitude. So we'll just sort of start doing skeleton army stuff as well. Right. There was actually a 1885 article in SPEAKER_08: the Sussex Coast Mercury newspaper that basically said that they were watching the skeleton club, the new skeleton club there in Worthing that had been formed in March. And they were actually using the old bonfire club banner. Like they didn't even bother to create a new one. They just basically slapped skeleton over bonfire club. Just to get the point across here that like these were the exact same people, essentially. They just took their bonfire club thing and actually directed it toward a purpose. It was purposeless before. It was all celebratory, rabble rousing. Now it was, we're actually going to use those same tactics to get the Salvation Army out of town. Yeah, exactly. SPEAKER_06: They, the Skeleton Army would usually black their faces. Sometimes they did wear masks, but to let each other know like who they were, they would wear the color yellow somewhere a lot of times with like a ribbon or some kind or a sunflower to identify one another. And yeah, it seems like that they were just basically the same people, well not, you know, kind of thinly disguised as the Skeleton Army. And these things would just happen all over the place in England until someone would come in, read the riot act literally, and break it up and say, you know, you have to disperse now. Sometimes that went okay and sometimes it didn't. Yeah, so the riot act, SPEAKER_08: I didn't actually know the origin of it, did you? Yeah. Oh, you didn't? I knew. English major. So, I didn't realize that. So I'm going to explain it to people who didn't realize it either, okay? No, you should. So when you read somebody the riot act, you're basically like telling them that you don't like how they're acting. You give them a warning about if they act that way any further, they're going to have their iPhone taken away or something. Right. There's actually a riot act from 1714, the British riot act. And what you would do is if you were, you know, rioting, if you were breaking stuff, if you were a rowdy crowd, the army would come out and read the riot act that basically said, you got to stop what you're doing and disperse or the army's going to make you disperse. And if you didn't disperse after reading the riot act, then the army would be forced to make you disperse. And these, the skeleton armies throughout England, I think more than once, had the riot act read and had the army called out on them because they were rioting so hard against the Salvation Army. Riot hard is a great album title. For striper. Right. Yeah, maybe. For SPEAKER_08: the new striper. Are they still together? Did you find that out in your deep dive? I don't remember SPEAKER_08: where the last album was, but I'm pretty sure it was in the 2000s. So I, they might be, I'm not sure. I don't remember. Sorry. I could, I could see them still playing shows with like less teased SPEAKER_06: hair, but still sort of long and maybe like a half shaven beard kind of thing. Yeah. Do you remember SPEAKER_08: when we saw Dee Snider? Oh yeah, that's right. I can imagine that they probably look a lot like Dee Snider these days compared to how Dee Snider used to look. Yeah. We were on a talk show. This SPEAKER_06: is back when people used to call us for stuff like that. Weirdly early on, we got way more press and like invites to be on TV than we do now. I'm fine with that. I like it now. Oh no, I totally am. I don't want to go. I like being put out to pasture. Yeah, I do too. But yeah, Dee Snider was also a SPEAKER_06: guest on the show and we, and we met him like, not in the green room, but like backstage or something. I would say in passing, yeah, he was going one way. We're like, hey Dee Snider. He SPEAKER_08: just kind of gave us like a heads up if I remember correctly. I think, and we were on first and I SPEAKER_06: think our joke at the time was that we opened up for Twisted Sister. Yeah. Yeah. This last part that we're going to talk about, I don't fully, fully understand, to be honest. It has to do with the court system and whether or not, and peaceful assembly and whether or not you can say, hey, it's a peaceful assembly. If you know you're going there and you're going to egg on people that will react in violence, is that still a peaceful assembly? Yeah, it ties into what I SPEAKER_08: was saying earlier that people used to blame the Salvation Army, including the courts, for inciting riots just from doing their thing. So, while they were loud and they were singing off key and they were in your face about how you were going to hell, they were still under English law assembling peaceably. They weren't breaking stuff. They weren't breaking any laws. They weren't hurting anybody like physically or anything like that. So, technically it was a peaceable assembly, but because almost invariably in some of these towns when they showed up and did their thing, a riot would break out. The Salvation Army was held responsible in the courts for triggering riots and they're like, you can't assemble anymore because you incite riots, your very presence. And finally, some appellate court in the United Kingdom was like, that don't quite track. They said something like, what has happened here is that an unlawful organization has assumed to itself the right to prevent the appellant and others from lawfully assembling together. Basically saying that a man may be convicted for doing a lawful act if he knows that his doing it may cause another to do an unlawful act. And the extent of that is that you're not responsible for the act of another person. It's like if you trigger somebody and they punch you in the face, they're in trouble for punching you in the face, you're not in trouble for triggering them. As much as you despise what the person might be saying, and they might be saying it right in your face, you can't hit them. That's breaking the law. Telling somebody that they're going to hell right in their face, it's not breaking the law. And so that actually established precedent in the English speaking world in I think 1886, 1882. Beatty versus Gillbanks established that the Salvation Army had the right to peaceably assemble even if it triggered riots. And that really kind of led to the idea that you can peaceably assemble even if the people don't want to hear what you have to say and will riot. It's on the rioters, not on you, the person provoking them. Yeah. And I think the question since then has been the sort of gray area of what SPEAKER_07: SPEAKER_06: constitutes a peaceful assembly. Yeah, which is, I mean, yeah, if you're like a young anarchist, SPEAKER_08: are you going to sue the government for breaking up your peaceable assembly? Probably not. So you're really kind of at the mercy of whatever mayor or police chief who runs the town that you're assembling in. But there's a law in, or there's a case that set precedent in 1977, National Socialist Party of America versus Village of Skokie. There was a bunch of Chicago Nazis that wanted to march in Skokie, which had a huge population of Jewish Holocaust survivors. And Skokie said, no, you can't do that here. And the Nazis sued them and won. They didn't actually ever march, but they won that case. And it established that no matter how reprehensible your views, you have a right to say them in America, it's part of your First Amendment rights. And that is what the Blues Brothers are referencing when they said they hate Illinois Nazis, and they drive through that bandstand and make Henry Gibson and his Nazi friends jump into the river. That's what they're talking about. Yeah, that case. That's pretty cool. I thought it was pretty cool too. You got anything else? I got nothing else. This is good. I thought it was SPEAKER_07: SPEAKER_08: good too. Who was it? Corey? That was from Corey. Great suggestion, Corey. Great suggestion, Corey. SPEAKER_08: And yes, this was a good one, Chuck. Since Chuck said this was a good one, and I agreed, I think it's time for listener mail. I'm going to call this nice little additional SPEAKER_06: nugget of info from John. Hey guys, I was listening to the episode on the Franklin Expedition. Longtime listener, first time writer, by the way. In the episode, you collaborated to make up the pun name for a bad sailor, Leadfoot McCantswim. I didn't remember that until he wrote it. It was pretty funny. And it brought up a nugget of a fact I learned a few months ago. I'm not sure if you were making this joke because of this, that you knew a lot of sailors back in that time couldn't swim, but you were right. Many sailors back in the day couldn't swim for a number of reasons. They ranged from a lack of resources such as warm water and time in which to learn, to the desire of not to prolong suffering, which might happen if you were to find yourself overboard, like, just go down, I guess. It's pretty hardcore. Pretty hardcore. Sadly, stopping a ship or going back to save a sailor did not or could not have happened very often. So drowning might be the fastest and easiest way to go. I picked up this nugget from Peter Stark's book Astoria that covered the origins of Astoria, Oregon, being set up as a private trading colony by John Jacob Astor in an attempt to monopolize the Pacific fur trade. If you're ever running low on topics, this would be a great episode. But I don't expect you're running low, so I plan on hearing about it in about 20 years. Yeah, you never know. You never know. Who was that? That's from John. He says, SPEAKER_06: thanks for the knowledge. Yeah, you never know, John. Thank you for the knowledge. We appreciate SPEAKER_08: you big time. That's a good one. Non-swimming sailors. Yeah, I did not see Oregon fur trading SPEAKER_08: coming into that story, but here we are. Yep. Well, if you want to be like John and get in SPEAKER_08: touch with us and make a suggestion for an episode, we'd love that kind of thing. You wrap it up, spank it on the bottom, and send it off to stuffpodcast.com. SPEAKER_04: Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, my heart radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Have you heard about Vivgard? F-Guard, Tigmad, Alpha, F-Cat? Ask your neurologist if SPEAKER_03: Vivgard could be right for you and learn more at vivgard.com slash learn. That's V-Y-V-G-A-R-T.com slash learn brought to you by Argenex. Have you had it with toxic pet odor products that don't SPEAKER_02: really work? Try the revolutionary new odor eliminator, Poof. Poof eliminates odors instantly. No harsh chemicals, no tacky perfumes. Poof dismantles odors on a molecular level, turning any organic odor into clean, fresh air instantly. And not just pee or poop stink. Use it on stinky pet toys, their beds, even on stinky skin folds, ears, and around eyes, because it doesn't contain harsh chemicals. Get the amazing new pet odor eliminator everybody's talking about. Go to poof.com today. That's P-O-O-P-H.com. If it's not poof, it stinks. Congratulations to the Walt Disney SPEAKER_05: Studios Technology Team, first place award winner for Innovation in Employee Enablement at the 2023 Unconventional Awards presented by T-Mobile for Business. 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