SPEAKER_01: Two years ago, they weren't in the race.They weren't even in the stands.They weren't paying attention to this.They were changing the name of the company to Meta because of the metaverse.Now, Meta means search engine for AI.He literally took the brand Meta and said, you know what?
SPEAKER_05: Meta.ai.
SPEAKER_01: It's Meta.ai.I meant it all along.Like literally, a guy fell on his face, got barbecued by everybody.Everybody said he's distracted and he's like got this stupid idea with the metaverse that nobody cares about.And he just turns this entire- Judo move.This is a judo move.He redirected the energy.And I think the MMA stuff got him reinvigorated as an entrepreneur.He just took the battleship and turned it around.
SPEAKER_04: Congratulations to the team over there because-
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to tell you this could be the most important news story of the year.
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SPEAKER_01: All right, everybody, welcome back to This Week in Startups.And with me, after pulling an all-nighter, my guy, Sunny Sandeep Madra.How are you doing, brother?Big day.Big day.There's a lot to talk about.Lots to talk about.AI never sleeps.Just like you, Sunny, now that you are trying to get all of these new LLMs up and running on the Grok infrastructure.Everybody knows Definitive Intelligence, your company, was bought by Grok.
And now you are working with developers.And big news dropped this week from Facebook.Their open source model, which is called Llama, released version 3.Explain to people why this is important and what it is.
SPEAKER_04: The best way to explain its importance, I'm going to pull up a chart from the, and you know, we've used this before, is that it is a new model they trained. They open sourced it.But as people got their hands on it over the last 24 hours, that this open source model, 70 billion parameters.Okay.It's almost as good, just a little bit behind GPT-4, but better than Cloud 3, which was at the top.Better than Gemini Pro, better than Cloud Sonnet, better than Command R, better than the original GPT-4.Wow.
SPEAKER_01: So here we go.The race is on.Yes.This is big news.Big news.An open source model has arrived that's in essentially the top two models in the world.
SPEAKER_04: And it's more than an order of magnitude smaller.
SPEAKER_01: so not only explain smaller in this context right a lot of folks are new to ai for sure we're talking about parameters we're talking about the versions of these models we're talking about the context window let's do the audience a favor and just explain these from first principles when you say size do you mean the size of the software the size of the package of the model what does size mean in this context so i'm i'm gonna
SPEAKER_04: I'm going to use an analogy that I think makes it simpler for folks to understand, and then we can double-click if you need to.The way to think about number of parameters is neurons.Okay.And the way to think about neurons is like in animals.The more neurons, the smarter the animal.
SPEAKER_01: Got it. Like an octopus, or a human, or a dolphin, or a whale.All those delicious, sentient creatures that we eat.That's a shout out to this week's All In, which you haven't seen yet.But we had a little bit of a touchy moment on our shared love of octopus, which... Octopi have a lot of neurons.Okay, so neurons, when we say neuron, we mean parameters and neurons.
SPEAKER_04: And the more parameters we have, the more neurons the model has, the smarter it can theoretically be.Got it.And so the general thinking has been, we're going to create bigger and bigger models by bigger being more and more parameters. And the more parameters you have, the more training data you have to give it.And it's usually like several orders of magnitude, but let's just say one for simplicity.So if you have a 1 billion parameter model, you need to kind of give it 10 billion pieces of data, right?So if you have a trillion parameter model, you have to give it 10 trillion and et cetera, et cetera.What Facebook did, Meta did, They really change things up.So one of their, I guess, moats is they have a lot of data.
They have all the world's data. They took a smaller model and kept giving it more and more and more data.And what they've been able to show, and what's really interesting is, Zuck in an interview yesterday said, they stopped training this model.It was still getting better and better.They needed to reallocate the GPUs to train Lama 4.So they're like, we were blown away. And it was getting better and better and better.So it's the same model architecture, just given more and more data.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.Where did they get their data from?Have they been clear about this?Cause it's an open source model.That means the code to build the software is open source.You can go see that code. But open source data is different.So tell us, what can we understand about the data in the model, if at all anything?
SPEAKER_04: That's not as clear, right?But if you watch the interviews, one of the things that he said is they trained it with a lot more code.And look, one of the things that they have, they have a lot of code.They've been running one of the world's largest services or several of the world's largest services for years.They have tons of code. And so they have every right to take that code and feed it if they want to, right?They may have rights on, you know, I don't really know what Facebook's rights are on your eyes data, but I'm sure somewhere along the- I think they can use your data to train their model.
SPEAKER_01: Yes.Yeah.You can be certain their terms of service has that basic right. yeah or or they changed it recently or you know within the last couple years to do it so um you had to spend all night getting this up and running yeah all day on the grok all day got it yeah yeah so this drops onto github or hugging face and then just you know explain to the world here listening how that winds up being deployed on the grok infrastructure
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.So for us, like, so these models are trained on NVIDIA hardware and when you're training a model, you're doing, and I'm going to do an oversimplification.You're doing a forward pass, which is like running the model.And then you're doing like a back propagation.And so you're in, in, in training them, you're running the models all the time.So once the model is done, you can run it on NVIDIA hardware.And so others can get it up and running. We obviously have our own custom hardware.So we have to take that model and we run it through, you know, part of our secret sauce is our compiler.And we run it through that compiler.
And then that compiler takes that model and basically runs it on the configuration of chips that we've given it.So there's two models that we're running in the last 24 hours.One is the smaller one, which is Lama 3 8 billion. What's interesting is Lama 3, 8 billion has the performance of Lama 2, 70 billion.So it's got 10 times less parameters, but it has the same performance as one before.
SPEAKER_01: Fascinating.Why is that?Why is that?
SPEAKER_04: Well, I think it comes back to, and look, everyone is being blown away by this, right?That's, you know, I was showing some tweets and I'll pull those back up in a second here. What everyone is realizing here is that maybe you can take, you know, this sort of makes sense in biology.All of us humans have about the same number of neurons, right?You know, I don't think there's like a 50% difference, right?Right.If you give one human a lot more data, their output capability can be a lot more than another one.So I think what we're learning here is that if you give more and more data to even a smaller model, the results that it can produce in these benchmarks are incredible.And I think that's the path.
And Facebook, again, was a lot different than any of the other companies because the core of their business has access to a huge amount of data, is proving that they can build world-class models without even making them You know, GPT-4 is generally considered to be a 1.7 trillion parameter model.So if you think about that, that's more than 20 times larger than Lama 370B.
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SPEAKER_04: If you go to meta.ai... Yeah, I got it queued up here for us.
SPEAKER_01: Okay, great.Because this is... I started playing with this myself today in between meetings.Oh, you did?Okay.Well, just on a very cursory basis, and I just want to make one observation.When you pull up the Meta.ai... landing page yeah it has a very unique style to it okay fun style with a number of different um ways to ask questions but you don't have to log in so i just want to pause on that
SPEAKER_05: Okay.
SPEAKER_01: Because not having to log in, there's another website where there's a search box and you can type something in.That one doesn't require it either.So you can continue without logging in.And it just asks you what age you are, because I think they've gotten a little trouble with age gating or whatever.And so they're trying to be thoughtful of that.You remember when Suck was pulled in front of Congress or the Senate or somebody to... discuss these kind of issues but you know i i tried asking it who is jason calacanis and it did a wonderful job of like pulling from you know my wikipedia page whatever a really tight summary and um it did seem to me like they've built an interface that looks very reminiscent of the google original search page
SPEAKER_04: I hadn't thought about it through that lens because when I see all these chatbots, they all kind of are starting to merge for me.But like now that you're bringing it up, it does have those vibes of like sort of an early Google, very clean look search page.
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
SPEAKER_04: And you know, now we all use browsers, so I never even hit Google.We always just search out of our... Exactly.The URL.
SPEAKER_01: And they told... I saw Zuck in some clip of the interview he gave with his new haircut.People were mentioning the new haircut, I guess.I guess he's got a new stylist or something, so somehow that... His new look and his approach is interesting that people are noting, but he said they're going to put this search box on the top of every app they own.Yes.Yes. Okay, I want to pause for a second there.This is a shot across the bow of Google.And there's two reasons.The first reason is that they are both a place where people start their, you know, journey on the internet, right?You're on your phone, you're open your browser right now, there's probably a tab open to or an app open that's run by these two companies.
whether it's YouTube, Google, Gmail, Facebook, Instagram, or WhatsApp, okay?So they all, in other words, have massive distribution to billions of users.But... There's never been a search engine to speak of or a search function of the open web in any of these products by Meta.And now there is.And they're going to super distribute it.So if they can get 1%, 2%, 3%, 4% of searches away from Google, part two is they have an ad network already.They already have advertisers.Yeah. And the advantage that Google has always had is that in the box, you type your intent.
Looking for a sushi restaurant, flying to Sydney.I'm going looking for a hotel in Dubai.There's a lot of purchase intent, right?In a search.Yeah.Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_04: It's a window into the user's mind.
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.At that moment in time.And you can connect it with an advertiser.Facebook has had to connect based on psychographics. You're a 53 year old living in the Bay Area.You're married, you have three kids.You like to go skiing.Your friends share pictures of you skiing.You also go to Mexico quite often and we see a lot of sushi and you know, oh, you seem to be, you know, commenting on photos and following accounts in Dubai.We have some psychographic on you to give you ads.
Well, now Meta's gonna have both. direct intent, and psychographics.This is going to create the greatest threat to Google's advertising competence that's ever been created.And this is going to make meta stock and revenue go wild.Ooh.
SPEAKER_04: It's going... Is the J trade... This is the J trade is on. It's on, but are you going to lever the J trade?
SPEAKER_01: Am I spreading?I'm going to spread the trade?Am I going to short Google a long meta?
SPEAKER_04: Well, no, you can lever it just by getting into call options because that gives you some levers.
SPEAKER_01: I mean, listen, it's Friday night when we're taping this where, you know, the market is closed.So we can discuss this.We got a little window, you know, before this drops.But I think I might go into my Robinhood account and I might J trade.I might sell half my positions and put it into Meta.And now listen, I bought Meta at $90.I don't know what it's trading at now.400, 500.It is trading $480.Okay.
SPEAKER_04: I've already run this bad boy up 5X.
SPEAKER_01: I'm 5X, and I'm thinking that this could, you know, be explosive.And the fact that Zuckerberg is talking about this in a direct video is extraordinary.It reminds me of the impact YouTube had on Google.Google had, you know, a certain type of advertiser.You know, a direct marketing type advertiser, right?You kind of get like this little, I refer to it as the sniper shot. You weren't getting an emotional advertiser, psychographic advertiser.You weren't going after moms or dads or teens or single people versus married people.You get the idea.When YouTube came along, now you started to have the ability to show people video ads, which evoke emotion.
It's like a whole different group of advertisers.And you combine those two things, you see ads.
SPEAKER_04: Was it net new or was it a shift?Did people move budgets or did the budgets just increase?
SPEAKER_01: This gave them access to a budget that they didn't have access to, which is some advertisers want to visually show their product.And so you take a car company.How many times have you seen car ads on YouTube?All the time.How many times do you see a movie trailer or a TV show ad?All the time.All the time.Why? Because, you know, if you show a car, a Volvo, you know, a Toyota, zip, zip, zipping along, you might buy it.And if you see, you know, Volvo is an interesting car, in a search ad, you're not going to, it's not going to evoke any emotion, right?
So you have this emotional connection, this visceral connection that comes from video. That really, really, I believe was a key moment in the history of Google in terms of making a really great ad platform.So you had people who were marketers who now were able to spend two different ways. That's what's going to happen here.That's what's going to happen here with Facebook, you know?You're seeing it.You can just see it.You've seen this movie.I've seen this movie before, and I think this is going to be explosive.I don't think necessarily Google's the loser here.
I think anybody else with advertising revenue in the world, newspapers, televisions, magazines, content websites, I mean, I just think it's...
SPEAKER_04: It's going to make them even more dominant.Correct me if I'm wrong, but it always feels like that from the earliest days, Facebook has sort of had the best relationship with their advertisers.
SPEAKER_01: And they've done pretty well.Yeah.Both of them, Google was, Google had a very hands-off approach.They didn't, they wouldn't really talk to you that much, but YouTube did.So, you know, those people who like to do video ads, that's like, let's go get a, you know, that's a Mad Men, you know, let's get a three martini lunch.Let's go to Cannes, you know, that whole group.And so, you know, I, I think you're right.Facebook did have like a little bit more of that shake hands and you know go out for dinner kind of approach and this is going to just get them the direct response people in a really amazing way yeah wow This is a game changer.
The J trade is on.The J trade is on.I think I might just go in there and just literally sell everything I own in the J trade portfolio and just put it into Meta and Google.I'm doing these searches in real time while we're having a conversation.And let me just share my screen here because you've been to Dubai, yeah?Yep.
SPEAKER_04: I'm supposed to be going in the next couple of weeks again.
SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.Well, maybe I'll have to jump on a plane with you because, you know, I love that.Here we go.I could jump on the Grok Gulfstream.No Grok Gulfstream yet.Oh, my God.Oh, that would be so yum-yummy.Okay, so look here.Here we go.Here are some of the best hotels in Dubai.
Four Seasons Resort Dubai at Jumeirah Beach.We know that one.The Palm, the Ritz, one and only one Palm.We know that.Bulgari.I mean, these are the best.
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, it gives citations. And if you click on those citations, one and two, it's dumping you to a Google search.
SPEAKER_04: Oh, wow.I wonder if they're getting paid like the Apple arrangement.Isn't that interesting?Yeah.
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Visit getepo.com slash twist.Just visit geteppo.com slash twist.And let's get some experiments running.Let's get that product market fit.And thanks to EPO for supporting independent media like This Week in Startups and all the startups who are listening.Well done.You look at my screen here.Look at this.When I hit sources, it's another Google one.And it says the luxury, the two web pages where it took this information from.
So that web page now at Forbes is going to get some traffic. So, okay, this is interesting.Why is there a Google search down here?Does anybody know what's going on here?Is there a Google relationship we're unaware of?These are dogged competitors.So why would they link to a Google search, or are they using the results of the Google search to get this information?And then number two, when you click view sources, and it just has these links here... It puts the Google logo next to them.
SPEAKER_04: Why?So I can speculate.So basically, you know, all these modern answer engines that are being built, and, you know, we did a demo before as well.These modern answer engines, right, are using... They need search results.And there's different services that have been created to do that.And so... What has maybe happened here, you know, obviously Meta is not going to just go use one of those services.They're not going to scrape Google.So they maybe just went and did a direct deal because what these engines need is the results to come back.And then the engines use their own reasoning capability to like, you know, read the results and then parse things out and then return it to you.
That's a good answer, though.Kakari is incredible.Look at this.So this is on Search Engine Journal, which is actually, you know, quite reliable.Exactly.For this particular thing, it said Meta integrates Google and Bing search results into the Assistant.And so that's what they're saying.Both are coming in and they're talking about that.And, you know, they're talking about the Zuck interview where he brought this up. And so really interesting now.
And here's the examples of bringing meta into all the applications.
SPEAKER_01: Amazing.Wow.So this is going to just change everything.Zuckerberg is now coming in and he's looking to steal Google's cheese.
SPEAKER_04: I got to tell you, and I feel like you have one of these and you definitely had one back in the day.But when you break that chain out-
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that means you're going gangster.This is, I mean, Zuck is going into his, you're talking to me phase.You talking to me?I don't see anybody else here, so I think you must be talking to me.Zuck's hair is out of control.Yep.There's no gel. Or maybe he's putting clay in it.I don't know what's going on, but the hair's on fleek.He's wearing a gold chain around his neck.
I think he's hanging out with these UFC guys.His testosterone has got to be off the charts.Maybe he's doing human growth hormone.I don't know what's going on here, but this is a level of aggressiveness. That is even like for Zuck a little bit out there, but this is a big deal, folks.This is like a weird, you know, weekend drop, Thursday, Friday drop.And if you're at Google right now, if I'm Sergey, if I'm Larry, if I'm Sundar, this is another War Room moment. Now you've got Microsoft on one side with Bing and you got Facebook on the other side.And they're both looking at that search money printing machine and they're saying, yum, yum.Is there a chance to steal it?
SPEAKER_04: I saw this and I had to bring it up because I think it's like, it was good.It was good. This is the three phases of Zuck.Obviously early Zuck.This might have been like a CNN interview when he was probably, you know, just started.
SPEAKER_01: He just made it to San Francisco.He just left Harvard.
SPEAKER_04: This wasn't that long ago.This is the in front of Congress interview.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.Well, he's been pulled up in front of Congress for the last five years.So who knows which one that was.Is that the most recent one?The most recent one.Yeah.
SPEAKER_04: And obviously someone did a little bit of touch up here and gave him.
SPEAKER_01: I think they gave him a goatee there.I don't think he's rocking the pier.
SPEAKER_04: No, he wasn't.No, no, he wasn't.But like everything else is pretty good, but this is pretty awesome.
SPEAKER_01: It's pretty awesome because what they're saying is this is this famous bell curve chart.So you have like the elite person all the way on the right of the bell curve.You got the average mid person.And then the left, you got like the more raw person.So usually the way this is presented is like there's a ninja hacker on the right.There's like a low IQ.I don't want to say the term, but like mentally disabled person on the left.And in the middle is like everybody. And the point they kind of make is the people on either end of the spectrum are like the unique, interesting people in the world.And so here we go.
I mean, kudos to Zuck, but the game is on now.And, you know, this is one of the interesting things about antitrust.By the time Lina Khan or, you know, the UK or the EU or any federal agency starts to take apart a monopoly, the free market takes them apart completely. And the barbarians are at the gate.You got Microsoft coming in the front, and now you've got on the side, boom, another person coming in on the side.
SPEAKER_04: Can I share one more thing from the interview that he did yesterday?Or he did a couple, but the one with Darkwesh, which he said something really interesting.Like, hey, how did you get on top of the GPUs?He's like, well, we needed the GPUs to basically compete with reals. And we needed in order to compete or create real, sorry, that would compete with TikTok.And in order to pull, in order to create the algorithms, they had to go from algorithms that were built for like, you know, for your own network to TikTok style algorithms, which is they have to find the most interesting thing in the entire network. And so they did a monster purchase in 2022.So it was really interesting.And then they ended up having all this compute, which they've been able to leverage and turn into all this wonderful stuff. It's really awesome.
And what I'll say is the implication for the broader ecosystem.So once you look outside of that, and I'm just going to pull up another tweet.So we talked about what having more powerful models means.But if you really look at what's happened in the last 24 hours and why I left our poker game to come in and get this launched is... We are running Lama 3 at 300 tokens a second.Claude Opus, which has moved down on this list, runs at 18 tokens a second.And GPT-4 is 36.So if you're building something and they're all in the relatively same bucket of capability, you want the fastest one.So that's what we've been very excited about over the last 24 hours.
SPEAKER_01: Okay, yeah, and Reuters is reporting that Meta has struck some kind of a deal with Google to include those results.And so something's going on here where the results are being provided.And so we don't know the details of that deal, but it's definitely a big deal because whoever gets that search result into their database... is going to have a lot of power because you can connect that search forever to that person.So, you know, if you were to search for something like you're feeling sad and depressed now, you know, you're going to see depression, medicine ads, pharmaceutical ads to the cows come home because you did a search, you know, like, uh, I'm how to feel less sad.Or if you're like, you know, you do an Ozempic search, I want to lose weight, whatever it is.Yeah. Whoever has the search, man, I mean, it's just such purchase intent.And you combine that with what pictures you're sharing and what's in those pictures, it's going to be incredible.
SPEAKER_04: So we don't have the details of what's going on here yet.We have two grades to give out.Two grades, okay.We're going to give out one grade on the model, Lama 3, and the second grade on Meta.ai.
SPEAKER_01: A and A+.I'm going A and A+.I mean, it's clear this model has broken in with an open source model into the top two. Yes.And if you want to say, hey, one, two, and three, it could be wrong.It's a mistake.We need more time to figure it out.Even if it was in the top five, the top 10 models have been proprietary models, closed source models.Yes.To date, right?
Yeah.So just the fact that it's even in the top three would be extraordinary, let alone number one or number two.Okay.So that's an A. I'm not going to give an A+.You don't have enough information, but next week we could reserve the right to raise our grades.And then for this interface, the reason I'm giving it an A+, is not because the interface is there, but because the vision is there.And it's not just the gold chain and the crazy hair.And the fact that he's doing the product discussions himself, it's that he said in the product discussions that he's putting this at the top of every app. And there's going to be a search box and he's going to super distribute it.
That means he has made this a priority.
SPEAKER_04: War room micromanager.Like, yes, this is my company.I'm going to win.
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With Hidden Layer, go from pause to possibilities and step into the future of secure AI innovation. Learn how to protect your generative AI today by visiting hiddenlayer.com slash twist.That's hiddenlayer.com slash TWIST.You know that vibe, right?Somebody's here.He's not asking anybody in the company what they're going to do.He's telling them. Put the search box at the top.We could discuss everybody's feelings about that, but we're doing it.And I tell you what, have a good time discussing it.
I'm out.I got an MA.I got to get to Vegas to go see UFC 301 or whatever the hell it was that he was at.So this is, you know, that's why I give it an A+. If I was just judging the interface based on the searches I did, I'd give it a B or a B plus.But I think because the vision is there and I have one more thing to add.He created a look and feel and a specific domain name.And you can tell how committed people are on if they give something a specific name and brand and let it stand on its own.Yeah. He's telling people, go to meta.ai.
And I'll give you another reason this is really important.He didn't say you have to log in.He's like, you know what?I know this is going to cost me money. Every time somebody searches, I know I'm going to be hitting the server farm.I don't care.This is the investment I want to make.I don't know how much he's losing on these server farms, but he was willing to lose $10, $20 billion a year on silly goggles.He said 100.I know, but I'm talking about the goggles.
Remember he was losing $10, $20 million a year on the goggles that nobody was using?$10, $20 billion on goggles?Yeah.I mean, if he gets but 10% of search... It's going to change the entire industry.And so you give it a domain name, you give it a look and feel.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: You tell it's going to be super distributed.We're putting this on every single app.Yeah.I mean, it tells you everything you need to know.
SPEAKER_04: He's going for it.And it's strong.Like, you know, everyone was kind of like, oh, meta, now meta.ai.You're like, I could go there and I could search.I would use it.
SPEAKER_01: And you know who doesn't do this?Google.Remember Google Plus?Where did Google Plus exist?Bored. Google Bard.They never did Bard.com.Google Plus should have just done Plus.com.They never made its own look and feel.Google Plus, they were like, we're going to put it up in the little car in the top right.
SPEAKER_04: It was hard to get to even, right?
SPEAKER_01: It was up in the top right hand of your navigation.It just showed that they were not committed to it as a standalone long-term brand. Whereas with YouTube, they were like, it's going to have its own office space.It's going to have its own logo.It's going to have its own vibes.It's going to have a creative space in San Francisco, a creative, sorry, San Bruno, and then a creative space in LA.This is how you know when the CEO is committed is do they put it in its own building?Do they give it its own brand?This is, I'm going to tell you, this could be the most important news story of the year. Wow.
I think this might be the new story of the year for our industry.
SPEAKER_04: I am the other way around.I'm A plus on the model.Okay.And I'm A on the AI integrations.Okay.Say more.Well, the model, look, putting that out in the open and giving it to the community and giving them a challenge.And he also said this, right?Was I want the community to take it.
I want them to make it better.I want them to make it run faster.I want them to make it run cheaper.And he goes, even if from the community does something and it's 10% better, we're going to spend a hundred billion dollars on this stuff.That's a $10 billion saving for us. He also said, it's important that no one company owns the greatest technology ever invented.And so that's a really, really strong move in this world where most companies are trying to create closed AI.And not just, you know, closed AI, right?But a bunch of others.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, Claude's closed.Yep.You know what's interesting also about that?I think when you're behind... and you've got like a giant business.Yes.You're totally fine when you're behind being open source because it helps you catch up.So where was Meta a year ago?Or let's say two years ago.Where was Meta two years ago in the AI race?
SPEAKER_04: No, two years ago, they were just buying the GPUs to try to compete with TikTok.
SPEAKER_01: exactly they were not in the race they literally didn't have their they didn't have their running shoes on yet yeah a year ago they launched llama they launched llama so a year ago they're in the race and if there's 10 people in the race but they were in ninth or tenth place yeah trailing the pack and now you're telling me and i trust your judgment sandeep yeah you're telling me they're neck and neck at the
SPEAKER_04: Well, it's not just my judgment.I'm just sharing what the standard industry benchmarks are saying right here.They are tied for two.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.So let's just pause again and recap what we've learned.Two years ago, they weren't in the race.They weren't even in the stands.They weren't paying attention to this.They were changing the name of the company to Meta because of the metaverse.Now, Meta means search engine for AI. He literally took the brand Meta and he's like, you know what?
SPEAKER_05: Meta.ai.
SPEAKER_01: It's Meta.ai.I meant it all along.Like literally, he fell on his face, got barbecued by everybody.Everybody said he's distracted and he's like got this stupid idea with the metaverse that nobody cares about.And he just turns this entire... judo move this i think that the this is a judo move he redirected the energy and i think the mma stuff is got him reinvigorated as an entrepreneur he just took the battleship and turned it around congratulations to the team over there because cannot around with a guy that wears a chain on the outside of his shirt i mean Jake, you might have to break one.I'm breaking it out.I got it right here in the drawer.I'm breaking it out.
The point is, this chain is indicative of where he's at, which is, you're talking to me, Zach.This is just incredible.It's incredible.Like I said, if he can get one or two or three percentage points of search... There's no reason he can't beat Bing at search.So now you got to be Microsoft going, oh man, this lunatic.But open source allows you to catch up quick.And then he can take this high road position like Elon has taken, which is, hey, participate in my ecosystem.Don't use their software.
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
SPEAKER_01: And you know what?He would never, he specifically turned off the app ecosystem inside of Facebook, remember?He screwed every developer who ever, every partner who ever worked with him, he screwed. From his personal partners in the business to advertisers to people building pages and content providers.Content providers, app providers, and his own co-founders.He screwed everybody.Now he's going, you know what?Let's build together.Smart move.I don't know if I trust him, but we'll see.
SPEAKER_04: I mean, look, I think... There is so much going to happen.I'm going to put another prediction out there, J. Cal.Here we go.In the next 60 days, this is really going to shake up.I mean, if you're any of these other companies, right, you're really sitting there saying there is a open source free model that's available.The only people that really can't use it are like other internet companies, right?Their license limits you if you have... Oh, yeah?Yeah, I think the license says something like if you have something more than like 100 million active users, you can't use this, which it's just targeted at like Snapchat and TikTok or, you know.
SPEAKER_01: Really?That's interesting.Then how can it be open source then?I guess it's... Well, part of the license.I've never heard of an open source... open source have license different licenses right but have you ever heard of a license based on the number of users that's the first time i've ever heard i've heard of licenses like you have to contribute back yeah you have to give credit link back so anyway this is i think somebody's got to get in there and read that license bullet by bullet point because this does matter and if you're going to build on somebody else's system you really do want to understand that but Yeah, I agree with you.This is another one of these earth-shattering moments.
SPEAKER_04: I'm just going to pull this object out, because this license is actually pretty simple and clean.I want to give them credit for it.So, obviously, here's a license.Plain English license.Obviously, there's an agreement.There's a licensee.That's you.Metalama materials.Yeah, defining the parties.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_04: Exactly.They grant you a right, redistribution.Here's the only thing that you need to understand.Additional commercial term.I'm just going to read this for the folks that are listening.If on the Meta 3 Lama version release date, the monthly active users of the products or services made available by or for the licensee or licensee's affiliates is greater than 700 million active users, then you must request a license from Meta and Meta may grant it to you at their discretion.So- This is very specifically targeted at like two or three companies because this doesn't affect anyone else.It doesn't affect the corporate, like an enterprise.It doesn't affect anyone else.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.I mean, it's rarefied air to get to that number.They're probably including, I think Reddit probably breaks that number of monthly active views.I think Reddit might be right there.I wonder if that's a Reddit clause.700 million? twitter's at um monthly um we're doing monthly active users we got to get the monthly active users in like like the like i think 100 or 250 years like that kind of range yeah top monthly active users 2024 internet 700 million is a big number i mean it's like a top internet services by now i'm just gonna ask meta Yeah, that's meta.That's it.That's meta AI.
Right here.Okay.Facebook, 3 billion.WhatsApp, 2.78.2.5.
SPEAKER_04: Instagram, 2 billion.WeChat, TikTok, Telegram.Then you fall way off.There you go.
SPEAKER_01: But look who's at 750.Snapchat.You're right.It is a Snapchat rule.This is a Snapchat rule.Exactly.Or TikTok.And TikTok right here.Yeah, I don't think TikTok's got their own jam.I don't think they need them.
Monthly, mouse, Reddit, 2024.Let's see what Reddit has.
SPEAKER_04: Dude, this is so good.Like I'm just using it here.
SPEAKER_01: I'm such an idiot.I'm like literally using a Google search.We're talking about just replacing Google.This is why habits take a time.I know.Monthly active users for Reddit and Twitter.
SPEAKER_04: Oh, interesting.It said 1.2.Wow, that's interesting.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think because of all the SEO traffic they get.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_01: Reddit had, I'm getting a different answer.I'm getting 400 million in 2022.Twitter had 440.Reddit had 430 in 2020. Yeah.Okay.So anyway, it's, I think probably Twitter and Reddit are bouncing up against this and obviously Snapchat's over it.That's a very interesting clause.That's the first time I've ever seen it.
SPEAKER_04: Oh yeah.That's been around from the earliest licenses.So that's not a new thing.
SPEAKER_01: But you could still look at their code base and be inspired by it.
SPEAKER_04: Look at this.Look at this.Twitter 550.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.It's growing.Yeah.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: It's yeah. All right, well, there you have it, folks.Is there anything else we want to demo or talk about when it comes to this crazy meta moment?
SPEAKER_04: I'll just do like one more kind of fun demo just for the sake of it, because it's really fast and it's super exciting.So one of the things that they've done is made it so that it can code incredibly well.I'm going to pull up an example here.Give me a second.So we were trying this last year in you, right?Me, a snake. and you can see whoa see how fast that is yeah and and so basically it gives you two files uh right here's you know the the script and the index.html and if you bear with me for one second i'm just going to pull that up i'm going to save those And I'm going to pull them up and you're going to, you're going to get a, you're going to laugh.They're going to get a good kick out of this one.This is where the internet has come to.
So I just saved those two files because you can see this.I got a snake game.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.You made the snake game.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.Yeah.But I made it in like three seconds.
SPEAKER_01: Incredible.Yeah.Somewhere, Atari, 80-year-old Atari engineers are banging their heads on the wall.This represents their careers.Literally, that represents Waz's five years of Steve Wozniak's life.Nolan Bushnell just jumped off a roof.He's like, what? I mean, this does also, I think, lead us to the discussion we've had many times, which is an organization as big as Facebook with as many developers it has, as it has using co-pilots and building AI at the same time, is like the snake eating its tail.They are... Because they're building the LLM, that's going to help them be better coders.
They're going to use that LLM to write better LLMs and code.And so this is when we talk about the pace increasing and people talk about we're going to reach AGI, artificial general intelligence, faster than people think.When you see, I think this is another proof point or evidence, that the velocity is increasing.When you see new entrants take the number one or number two slot or the number three slot and it starts changing like this, what's happening is these models and these tools are making the people build the tools and the models better every day, every week, every month.You must be seeing that up close and personal as well.Maybe you could talk about what's happening in the developer community in terms of people getting better at building product.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.So there's an interesting framework here that I'm going to share with you that I think you should think about for your cohorts of companies.When human or humanity went through the industrial revolution, I'm going to use two examples.We went from bespoke car making, which means like a team would make like one car a day, like a factory where you got a thousand a day.And you went from like farming for maybe your family and your village at most to like industrial farms.You can feed entire states and or countries.Yes.Right.So that's like the industrial revolution impacting our society.
Yeah. We really haven't seen this in technology because if you have a designer on staff and that designer, you ask to create a mock-up for you, right?Or if you have an engineer on staff, you ask the engineer to build something for you.What we now have is the industrial revolution for those folks because I can now have a thousand images generated in just a few minutes. Or I can have 50 code games generated.And one of the things that Zuck did talk about also, so that's like the first thing.The second thing is you can now use these models to create data to feed themselves to get even better.That moment is here for us now. And so the folks that are using these tools are starting to accelerate and go faster and faster and faster.And my guess is that more so than anyone else, they've really cracked that and they've really figured out how to put AI itself in their loop of driving AI forward.
SPEAKER_01: Part of the industrial revolution was, you know, there were different machines.And to your point, we did have this happen in the information industry.It was called the printing press.Now, if you wanted to have knowledge, you had a priest, a monk sit there and they would take a book and then they would take some parchment and they would write a copy of the book. They would try it.And then a month later, they would have rewritten some text and then they would sell it to some prince or king and they would put it in their library.And then a printing press happened and they would make a metal template of that book.
SPEAKER_04: Set said knowledge or book.
SPEAKER_01: And they would set the knowledge there and then they would press a button and it would stamp the paper and cut it and put it into a book.And then all of a sudden, everybody could have that book, the printing press, right?The printing press changed the world.And then you also had that happen... with looms and building of clothing where you remember these looms that people started using to make clothes and all of a sudden somebody would be making a sweater and it would take them a week and now it would take them a day and then a machine eventually wound up doing it in minutes. And so that is, I think, a good way to look at it.If an app took a person, if building an app as a developer and a designer was the equivalent of that monk rewriting the book and it took them a month or let's say it took them three months to rewrite the Bible.Okay. Now they could make a hundred Bibles in a day.Could you make a hundred apps in a day with one developer?
And the answer is yes.Yes.Yes.It's coming.It's wild.It's well, it's here, but it's not polished enough. And the answers aren't correct.And this is part of why the Hume AI pin, I don't know if you saw Marquez, you know, barbecue and said it's the worst product ever.Marquez said it's the worst product he ever reviewed.But did you watch the actual review?
SPEAKER_04: I haven't seen it yet.I watched those with my son, so we're going to watch it tonight.
SPEAKER_01: So anyway, you watch it.What you'll find is it's a love letter to the hardware device.He's incredible about the build quality and how unique it is.There are some issues with battery life being short, and it's a little bit heavy, and it gets hot.You know, things you could... normally see.But the problem he has with it is the price of it, the fact that it's not as good as his phone, and it takes 12 seconds for the LLM to give him the wrong answer.So all the hardware he thinks is incredible, but the LLM is wrong.And so we just need to make sure the answers coming out of these LLMs are correct, because... You know, people were like, oh, he's beating up on these things.
Well, the truth is, we haven't been as critical of these LLMs and the answers they're giving.
SPEAKER_04: But Jacob, we just saw how they're getting better.They're not using their training data.In those two examples, it went out to the internet.
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
SPEAKER_04: And then it reasoned over the answers. Yes.That's the future, J-Cal.You don't want it to recall from its training data.Yeah.That's when you're subject to hallucinations.Yes.But if you tell it just the same way you or I would, hey, go and get this information, parse it for me and give it back to me in a table.That's what it just did there on those results.
SPEAKER_01: Yes.And it was much better.
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
SPEAKER_01: And it has a citation.So, and now, since it's giving a citation, that leads to our ongoing discussion about rights.If you give citations, and I think we started when we started doing these, you know, weekly AI discussions, I said, if you give citations and you link back, I have a lot less problem with this because, and then I don't know if you saw the Adam Schiff or- Yeah, we talked about it a little bit, right?We talked about it a little bit, yeah, how there's agreement that you just have to tell it what you trained it on.I think Zuck realizes that that's how this will shake out.And he's like, you know what? I'm just going to link to the pages that Google has in the top results.Zip, zip, zip.I did a deal with those guys.
I did a deal with those guys and I'll do a deal with you.And if you don't want to be in the index, just put no robots at TXT and we'll exclude you from these results.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: But man, this is disruptive.This is disruptive.Another crazy week.Congratulations, Sandeep, on getting this going.If you want to go to console.grok.com, is that the right place for people to go?
SPEAKER_04: That's the way they can go.Well, they can go to grok.com and just play with it, but you go to console, get a key, and start building your own stuff, which is what we want you to do.
SPEAKER_01: And he's Sandeep on the X platform, x.com slash Sandeep.He's super active, getting the replies there.Say hi to him, tell him you watch the show.Have a great weekend, everybody.The world is moving at a break, the three, two.The world is moving at an ever increasing velocity.And the way you're going to get through that is to be a part of these discussions we have here every week.Tell your friends about This Week in Startups.Search on YouTube for This Week in Startups.Hit subscribe, hit the bell.
Make sure you don't miss an episode so you can stay informed and so you can figure this all out with us. Sonny, any thing people should know about in terms of, I don't know if you have a startup program or a way for people to learn more.We gave them the URL, but is there a startup program there at Crockett or... We do.Just hit me up.We'll sort you out.Okay.Let's just make a... You should make a URL slash twist.I'll give you a free... Oh, let's do it.If you make grok.com slash twist... Slash twist?
Yeah.Yeah, like I do for my advertisers here.Since you do the show and you put so much work into it, I'll give you the free ad.You send people to that.It'll be the This Week in Startups deal.Oh, I like it.And you can just offer people some deal and webinars or whatever.We'll do it.That's my gift back to you and the grok team is grok.com slash twist.Is it G-R-O-Q or K?
Okay. G-R-O-Q.Yeah, you're G-R-O-Q.You sure you're G-R-O-Q?Yeah.You're the Q. We have that trademark.You have the G-R-O-Q.com.I know that this is a little contentious.G-R-O-Q.com slash twist, T-W-I-S-T.At some point, we'll have a twist landing page with some offers.
Sonny, thanks for sharing your knowledge.We'll see you all next time.Bye-bye.
