SPEAKER_04: Microsoft had a big announcement that they've gutted a company and stolen all their employees.
SPEAKER_02: Inflection.Inflection.
SPEAKER_04: Congratulations, I guess, to the team, but maybe not the investors.Congratulations to Satya Nadella to running the table on everybody.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, my lord, this guy is like getting super cutthroat.Yeah, be careful out there.Yeah.Satya will take all your employees.Satya might steal your girl.He might steal your girl.Exactly.
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SPEAKER_04: All right, everybody, welcome back to This Week in Startups.You know, we had so much news breaking in the world of AI that Sonny and I had a conversation about it.We said, you know what, we didn't do any demos this week because we had to talk about, God, so much going on.And then more news drops in the meantime. Yes.Microsoft had a big announcement that they've gutted a company and stolen all their employees.
SPEAKER_02: Inflection.
SPEAKER_04: So explain just briefly.We're going to do demos today, I promise, but we do need to address what happened here.And there's a lot of feelings, I guess, or debates about it.And so maybe you can level set and tell us what happened.
SPEAKER_01: So Inflection was this creation between Greylock and a bunch of folks from the DeepMind team, mainly one of the co-founders, Mustafa.Co-founder of DeepMind, incredibly talented person who's built several iterations of AI.And when they came together, the promise of what they were doing, which was really awesome, and they raised a lot of money for this, was... They had built a huge compute cluster.They were one of the largest purchasers of NVIDIA hardware last year.And they were claiming to create both a new chatbot and a brand new foundational model.So it was a direct competitor to OpenAI.And being built from folks that come out of the same lineage, have the same experience, the team had raised funds. I think upwards of $1.2 or $1.3 billion to compete.And everyone was excited to see what they were building, what they were launching.
Would we need more competition in the ecosystem?And then we wake up yesterday and we find out that Microsoft has recruited the team away.There's a new CEO in Inflection and we're all kind of scratching our heads.And we also learned that there was some kind of relationship between Microsoft and Inflection as well. That was the other thing that kind of came together.
SPEAKER_04: So I did see that they also had like some number of investors in common, including Bill Gates and some other folks.So this and then Reid Hoffman and then Reid.So LinkedIn to Microsoft.And I believe Reid is still on the board of Microsoft.Yeah. And so they've gutted the company.And this was Microsoft's approach as well with OpenAI.When there was a little bit of friction there, they said, oh, you know what?We'll just take the OpenAI team.So this is like a very cutthroat Microsoft approach now of, hey, we'll just steal your team if you don't sell your company to us.
And here they are.They've now essentially stolen a team.And then I guess there's going to be some back-end payments.But they're giving up their chat GPT. Competitor.Pie.Pie.Yeah.So that's over.The dream of that front end consumer facing agent has been taken out of the market.
So Microsoft now doesn't have that competitor for their Windows operating.Co-pilot.Co-pilot. So they eliminated a competitor.They took all their employees or their main employees.
SPEAKER_01: And they stood up a wholly owned sub called Microsoft AI, which Mustafa is the CEO of.Hmm.
SPEAKER_04: That's interesting.Yes.So what does that say to you?
SPEAKER_01: Okay.Well, let me frame it in a way that's different, at least from the way I see it and what's going on in the market.Why is this happening?I think it comes down to the following reasons. I think, one, for large enterprises, and Microsoft being the biggest one these days, AI is so important.And their need for resources that can build defensible AI for their business, they're willing to do anything. Now that stretches from hire the entire OpenAI team when they had that big falling out a couple maybe months ago to taking a company that they're investors in that's been funded through a well-known Silicon Valley investor and gutting it.This is how important building AI technology is to enterprises. And I think what Microsoft is showing is that if they really want to play to win, they must own that technology.We give them credit for pseudo owning it through the open AI relationship, but clearly they don't own enough of it.
And they sort of pseudo owned this one through their investment relationship, but that wasn't enough. And what it really means is the basics of business, if you really want to own something, you actually have to own it.And this is how important it is for them.They're willing to kind of, you know, not quite blow up, but do these funky things with these businesses in order to be in the market.I think that's A. I think B is... These things require so much money.And this kind of got uncovered in the Elon messages, right?Between OpenAI and Elon, where it's almost likely impossible to build one of these things as a standalone company. Because if you don't have a giant machine that's generating cash, like in the case of Google and Search and the case of Microsoft and their core business plus Azure, it's probably next to impossible to build out the infrastructure needed to pull this off.And so I think that's the second reason.
What if the team was like, hey, we're not happy with the 10,000 GPUs we have.We need 100,000.
SPEAKER_04: Yes.So this is super interesting.Microsoft obviously is, you know, become the world's most valuable tech company, huge market cap.Now, they added to the market cap after this, and they are under, obviously, regulatory scrutiny, like all of the major big tech companies, Apple and Amazon included. And what people are saying is this is a way to not have regulatory scrutiny.Just hire the team and Lena Khan, the UK, we know we screwed up the put the kibosh on the Adobe Figma deal.You know, you can just Hey, I just hired a bunch of people.It is what it is.And so now, this is what happens in a free market.If you try to overregulate a market and you get rid of M&A, well, now people have found a backdoor.
I'll just hire the whole team.
SPEAKER_01: And that outcome is probably as good as an M&A.
SPEAKER_04: Well, we'll see.Because now what you have to do is, you know, how do those investors get paid their money back?Is the company going to buy this?
SPEAKER_01: Not for the investors.It's shitty for investors.For employees, it's probably even better.
SPEAKER_04: yeah who knows but i mean you would think in order to pull this off they must have figured out a way to make those investors whole and i think there's been some back channel about they're finding some way to do that but this is putting somebody you know who's super qualified and you know he was on the podcast mustafa was on the podcast this summer august 17th episode 1794 when his book came out and um this is specifically he's going to report to satya Satya and he's going to have Bing and their co-pilot is going to be his area.So this is super interesting.You have to wonder like Apple and Google are not being super aggressive.It's kind of weird.I don't know.Why isn't Apple getting more active here?
SPEAKER_01: Did you see this one thing?I didn't see it, but I saw this article.It said Apple acquired 23 AI companies last year.What?Yeah.Very quietly, I guess, huh?Yeah.I saw it and I was totally surprised by it.
SPEAKER_04: That's a new piece of information for me.I know they've bought some small ones.Six days ago, Apple buys Canadian AI startup, Darwin AI.So that one I know about.There it is, nine to five back.Apple bought 30 plus AI startups last year.Wow, this is incredible.Let me take a look at this here.Okay, new information.Apple is said to have bought...
companies at an earlier stage in their development.Apple's pursuit of AI innovation has been evident in recent years.The tech giant has made a series of strategic acquisitions, including staff hires from AI startups to bolster its AI capabilities across various product lines.Apple purchased up to 32 AI startups by 2023, the highest number among tech giants in the overall AI startup acquisition.Hmm, when did it get a list of these companies?
SPEAKER_01: It says by 2023, not in 2023.Yeah, exactly.Ah, okay, that makes much more sense.
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Go to eightsleep.com slash twist and get 200 bucks off the pod cover.What a great deal.Eightsleep.com slash twist for $200 off the pod plus free shipping. We have to find this list of companies.This may have been over a very long period of time.According to Stocklytic, Apple purchased up to 32 companies.Okay.Back in 2020, Apple purchased Voysis, B-O-Y-S-I-S, an AI startup involved in making digital voice assistants that naturally aid in comprehending natural language.They did that to improve Siri, ostensibly.They also acquired WaveOne in March of 2023, whose technology is helpful in ample video compression.
That doesn't seem like AI.Hmm. They bought Drive.ai and AI.music.They are known for making what they call tuck-in acquisitions at Apple.So some team of 20 people figures out a technology, gets some patents.They're just a really good SWAT team, but they don't have a public-facing product.Or if they do, they shut that down immediately, get rid of the website, scrub as much information as possible.They did this with an acquisition of a company called Swell, which was a podcast player.
SPEAKER_01: They were a customer of ours. Yeah, Swell was great.
SPEAKER_04: Awesome podcasting.We doubled our money.I was like, please don't sell.Keep going.It's going to be great.And I think the reason why Apple's podcast player got a lot better and they took it more seriously was because of that application.But they immediately killed Swell.And Swell had this really great interface.It was tile cards.So you'd swipe the tile cards.
I guess you were involved in building it.Maybe you did the Android after them. But what was interesting is they would drop you off into a moment of the podcast.So if they knew you were into Apple, they might skip the first part when we're talking about Microsoft and just drop you into that Apple.And that was their kind of idea was like TikTok-ish understanding what you like about podcasts and then drop you off at the moment in time that you would like.That's a pretty interesting idea.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, way early on.I was an investor in a company called Locationary that they bought to clean up Apple Maps.
SPEAKER_04: Okay, here we go.Apple is looking to add more acquisitions even as it plans to bring on board Brighter.ai, a Germany-based startup to improve its new headset, the Apple Vision Pro. So let's get to demos.
SPEAKER_00: A lot of demos.
SPEAKER_04: Hey, congratulations, I guess, to the team, but maybe not the investors.Congratulations to Satya Nadella to running the table on everybody.I mean, my Lord, this guy is like, I mean, this is people were like Microsoft is cutthroat back in the day.It's super cutthroat.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, be careful out there. Careful out there, folks.Yeah.Satya will take all your employees.Satya might steal your girl.
SPEAKER_03: He might steal your girl.
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.Be careful.
SPEAKER_03: Don't leave your girl on the dance floor.Satya comes right up.Insert an AI video of Satya and Del stealing somebody's girlfriend on the dance floor.Oh, my God.It's so funny.All right.
SPEAKER_01: Let's do our demos.Come on.Let's get it.First one.We're going to rock and roll here today.So, Suno is back.And what I would say is they have a brand new model, V3. And what they've done is... So I don't know if you remember this one.This is where you give it a description and it creates... Yes, I remember this.Yeah.
And so they have a new model.That's why we're bringing them back here.Okay.And what I was going to say is I did some ones beforehand, but these were kind of the defaults.Give me a little description, J. Cal.We'll do one live here.A rock song in the style of Dire Straits.Oh my God.Okay.So I know what's going to happen here, but okay.
In the style of...
SPEAKER_04: Oh, because I'm saying Dire Straits?Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01: I want you to see what they're doing.
SPEAKER_04: That's it.Rock song in the style of Dire Straits.
SPEAKER_01: If you do that, what you're going to see is right down here, almost immediately, it's going to kick an error back, basically saying, could not generate that song description contains artist Dire Straits.
SPEAKER_04: Okay, so let's take out Dire Straits.Yeah, they're being respectful of this, but it kind of kills exactly what we all want to hear here.So what we would say here, a rock song in the progressive rock style with finger-picking electric guitar about a rock band playing in a dive bar. I'm kind of alluding to Sultans of Swing here.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.Yeah.So it's so funny, J. Cal.This is what this song up here was while that's coming up.I did it and I basically had ChatGPT explain to me what the style of Dire Straits was.
SPEAKER_04: I mean, you can see how much fun this is going to be.I mean, literally, this is going to be so much fun when they figure it out.
SPEAKER_01: This is your one.Okay.Okay.
SPEAKER_04: that is literally it doesn't sound like mark exactly like mark knopfler but it is definitely like a bluesy it's more john mayer who is influenced by uh dire straits but it's similar to dire straits i mean they understand electric guitar progressive rock they understand soulful they understand finger picking Wow.Wow.I mean, it's actually starting to sound like diet traits there.That is really impressive.That's super impressive.I mean, so let me hear the one you did.
SPEAKER_01: Oh, mine was not as good.So, uh, cause I, you're much better at describing songs than I am.So let me do another one.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's melodic.You got melodic.Let's do another one.Let's do one that is progressive punk rock about breaking the law and getting caught by the cops.And so this is I Fought the Law and the Law Won by The Clash.Progressive rock, punk rock about breaking the law and getting caught by the cops.I Fought the Law and the Law Won.
SPEAKER_01: I thought you were going to go for West End Girls for a second by the Pet Shop Boys.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah. I mean, that would be more of Sky Dane's playlist, but not exactly mine.He's into those emo... Okay, here we go.Pretty fast-paced punk rock.
SPEAKER_01: Okay, that's kind of... No, didn't do a good job.
SPEAKER_04: No, no, no.Hold on.Play it again.Let me see something here.It's got the drums.Okay.Ooh!
SPEAKER_03: Whoa!
SPEAKER_00: Did you just say F the police?Yeah, right here.Did you just say F the police?
SPEAKER_04: Giving the finger to law enforcement?F the police?Oh my God.I mean, that's a little hardcore.Yeah. You know, maybe because I put progressive punk rock in there, but it went for fast-paced punk rock.I just want people to understand here who are not watching, they should go to YouTube and type in This Week in Startups and subscribe and hit the bell and watch us do these.Because it's giving you, in under a minute, a musical track with lyrics that are somewhat synced to it.
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
SPEAKER_04: And if you were to play this to me, I would say that is the, what do they call the tapes when somebody would give their audition tape?
SPEAKER_00: Demo tape?
SPEAKER_04: This sounds like a demo tape.Like it's bad, but it's a demo tape, right?It feels like it could be good if they were more produced.Like if you gave this to a professional producer, they might be able to make something out of it.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_04: I give this an A. This is A for awesome.
SPEAKER_00: I agree too.
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Squarespace is super affordable.It's super valuable.And when you partner with Squarespace, like I've done for a decade, you constantly get new product releases.This is one of the great product teams of all time over at Squarespace.I know them.And they launch incredible things like this blueprint AI that you got to see to believe squarespace.com slash twist squarespace.com slash twist. what's really interesting here is this is it's not a proof of concept anymore these are actually demo tape quality these are demo tape quality i'm going to play this one for you this was your second dive bar one so okay yeah oh it's got lyrics it's more country yeah yeah
SPEAKER_01: No, that one wasn't good.That one wasn't good.
SPEAKER_04: So what's interesting there is they put auto-tune on the person.They made it into more of country.And my finger-picking, it didn't understand that I didn't want a song about finger-picking electric guitar.I wanted the finger-picking electric guitar sound.So that sounds like our description wasn't crisp enough.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_04: It should give you, tell me about the lyrics in one box.Yes.Tell me about the guitar.Yeah.Tell me about the drum.So I wonder if we did that.A drum style that's hard charging, an electric guitar style that's finger picking, a vocal style that's a female vocalist.I wonder if you could even give it all those.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you can.It kind of lets you describe it in how much detail you want to.Yeah.
SPEAKER_04: I mean, here we are, folks.It's pretty clear what's going to happen here.How this was trained is interesting because although they are not letting you put in dire straits or band names, I believe this was trained on copyrighted music.I don't know that.Yeah.But I'm wondering, it does feel like, so this is going to be an interesting trick, right? We don't let you say you want to create Darth Vader or Jedis because we know that's protected IP.You can't make Marvel characters.You can't make Dire Straits songs, but we kind of trained it on Marvel and Dire Straits.So if you do enough, you know, prompt engineering, you can still get that.
I think that, and is this, tell everybody the URL of this so they can go try it themselves.
SPEAKER_01: I'm just pulling up this.It's suno.ai, right?
SPEAKER_04: S-U-N-O dot A-I.
SPEAKER_01: Okay, great.But what I want you to see here is from a commercial use aspect, you are allowed to take these songs and put them in monetization services.And so as long as you're a subscriber.And basically, if you're a paying subscriber, you own the songs you generate while subscribed.So as long as you're subscribed, you own it.So what's interesting, though, is while you are subscribed.Oh, while you are subscribed.
SPEAKER_04: So if you unsubscribe, they get the rights back?Yes. Yes.Oh, that's interesting.Maybe that's just a weird way of saying, if you are a paying subscriber to Suno, then you own the songs you generate while subscribed to Pro or Premiere.Okay.So if you stop your subscription, that's not worded very well for the team over there.
SPEAKER_01: You know, interesting business model.Make a great song, subscribe to them in one of those plans, use it in your YouTube for audio or background music.That's pretty incredible.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.I like that they're dipping their toe into the rights issue and trying to explain it.Yeah.I would like to know the training data.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_04: So we'll look into that.Hey, if you work at Suno, let us know.How did you train this?I'm on the show.Exactly.I'd like to have him on the show.That'd be a great time.Come on.Great job.
SPEAKER_01: I give it an A. I'm in the same spot as you.I also want to say, there's one more thing I just wanted to show that they had here, is they kind of have this trending, so you can see by the number of plays.I'll just play one of these for us right now, unless something jumps at you here.
SPEAKER_00: Any one of the top ones sounds good.Definitely not speed metal, but... Yeah, this one sounds cool. ... So electric punk?
SPEAKER_06: Yep.
SPEAKER_01: I mean, this is... I was listening to some of these.Honestly, for me, I couldn't tell if one of these songs made it into the Billboard Top 100 and whether it was a real artist or not.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I don't know if we have a bet on this, but if we do, the under is going to win.I mean... It's pretty clear that we saw that they could do Gwyneth Paltrow's voice, for example, in Speechify.So, you know, or getting me to speak Chinese and you and I can do this in French or Japanese or Chinese.Like, it's okay.We know we can get speaking to the point at which you really can't tell the difference, whether it's a robocall of Biden or... lip syncing you know us speaking in another language so okay checkbox there and now it's kind of clear like we knew lyrics would get done that's not difficult we know artwork for albums can get done so the real question was could you actually make a melodic interesting song so can music and the singing voice get there and pretty clear that it can it's impressive a's a's all around a a a a for awesome it's gonna be great yeah We got a little breaking news here.Oh, okay.Wow.
from Rolling Stone.And I think our bet was, um, that there's a top 100 song by AI.
SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, it's, I'm going to make a thousand of these in one.I don't win that bet.I'm going to be like the streaker.
SPEAKER_04: People don't know.Somebody bet, whatever, 10 to 1 odds there'd be a shrinker at the Super Bowl.So then they decided to place the bet, get butt naked, and run across the field.
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes you got to do what you got to do to win.
SPEAKER_04: And we'll put a link to the Suno story from Rolling Stone by Brian Hyatt in the show notes.So you can read that directly.Thank you to Rolling Stone for asking that hard question.
SPEAKER_01: Let's keep going here.Let's keep going.This is a good area.I think you're going to like this one a lot.Go here.So we haven't really talked about them a lot.They are one of the foundational model providers, and they released a new model called Command-R.
SPEAKER_04: Command-R, which is... I believe, to refresh the page.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it is.You got it right.But what Command-R is claimed to be focused on and really good at is RAG.It stands for Retrieval Augmented Generation.Effectively, what that means is using a model to go get not the source of truth from its training data, but to go use an external source to go get the training data, to get the information you're looking for.So using it as almost like an agent. okay and so in this case i've pulled up their playground and what you can do is you can say hey get me a quick overview of um global market for solar panels it's just one of their built-in defaults yeah and it's going to run here but while it does that i'll just kind of i did this a few minutes ago and so what you'll see here is it went and did this search it did this grounding search and it put all the references right here
SPEAKER_04: Okay, so you said, can you give me a global market overview of solar panels?And then it went to the web and it found a bunch of different articles.That's a solar panel market size, share, etc.Okay, so it's doing a web search.
SPEAKER_01: Yep.And then what it did was it put this, like, you know, short summary together with the links to where it got all the data from.
SPEAKER_04: Okay, citations, which is what we've always been asked, I've always been asking for, and some people don't want to do it, because I think the reason people don't want to do it, Sandeep, they don't want to get caught with their hand in the cookie jar, so they'd rather pretend that they didn't take this information.
SPEAKER_01: This is different. Because it's searching the web.Exactly.So this is using the model as a reasoning engine to search over the web.And then it's putting it here.So this is not coming from the model's training data without it being connected to the internet saying, oh, well, I went and I went over this site and I realized that in 2023, the market was 165 billion.This is a distinctly different thing.And I think let's spend another minute making that clarification.Yeah. What you talk about a lot is when someone takes a model and basically in the training data, they go over things.
And when they regurgitate this information without a reference, that's not falling under, I guess what you would say is fair use.I think that's how you categorize it.Yeah.
SPEAKER_04: And let's just even use the word fair.Yeah. like put aside all legal concepts it doesn't feel fair that somebody did all that work and then somebody else you know got the value from it and here when you do a citation and you take a small portion of it and you link to the source i wouldn't mind that if you i was literally talking to somebody's got like a a twitter and instagram handle called startup archive or something and he like every week does one of my videos.And I said, Hey, listen, I'm okay with you doing it.But would you please put at Jason and at TWI startups in your first week, because he wasn't actually linking back to this week in startups.So people had to guess who I was in the video.And I'm like, Hey, here's the conditions under which I'll let you do this.Put at Jason at TWI startups.And in the follow up, put a link to the source.
And then I'll let you do this, you know, once a week or whatever, which I try to be reasonable about it.So if you're a fan of the show, I thought that was fair. Are you grinding hard to grow your business?I bet you are.You're listening to this week in startups.Of course you are.But don't let your hard-earned profits slip away because of overpaying on taxes.You need to check out GELT.G-E-L-T is the secret tax weapon trusted by savvy founders and CEOs.Their elite solutions will transform
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What a generous offer. Thanks, Team Guilt.Join G-E-L-T dot com slash twist to get 15% off.Transform your taxes from a liability to an asset.That's 15% off your first year at joinguilt.com slash twist.So anyway, this feels fair.It's great.The other thing is data and facts are not protectable.You cannot copyright data and facts.So if you were to make a website and you were to put...
These are the heights of all of the NBA players in the NBA.Now, I could take that data and put it into my database, you cannot claim that those facts are, you know, copyrightable.Now, so does that you can say scores?
SPEAKER_01: Okay, interesting.
SPEAKER_04: Yes, sports scores, whatever it is. There are some exceptions that where people have tried to put copyright onto it.One of them is my terms of service are that you can't scrape data.And if you do, you're breaking into my server.This was the LinkedIn case versus an Israeli company.I believe that LinkedIn wound up losing it. So, you know, scraping data off of Crunchbase or PitchBook or other places, like if it's behind a paywall, you know, and you take that data, and you've scraped it, you know, they can make some legal claims against you.It depends on jurisdiction as well.Obviously, in Israel and some other countries, they don't stop you from doing that.But you would have to get past the paywall.
And really, it just depends on if you're being fair with people.But I could go on to, for example, Crunchbase or LinkedIn, take the CEO's name of every company in San Francisco and make a new website with that information.But if I scraped it, they might be able to make the claim.Or if it's your website, San Francisco startups, you could make the claim that I...
SPEAKER_01: invaded and i broke into your servers and it's that's why they probably put them all behind logins now too right because then that forces you to agree to a terms of use that's exactly why they do it so the name of the company was high q um oh yeah and linkedin
SPEAKER_04: I'll just read it to you really quick because I think I'm super fascinated by this.Haikyuu Inc.versus LinkedIn Corp.case about web scraping.The Ninth Circuit affirmed the district court's preliminary injunction preventing LinkedIn from denying the plaintiff Haikyuu Labs from accessing LinkedIn's publicly available LinkedIn member profiles.Haikyuu is a small data analytics company that uses automated boxes to scrape information from public LinkedIn profiles.The court ruled that Haikyuu had the right to do web scraping.However, the Supreme Court, based on Van Buren versus United States decision, vacated decision, and remanded the case to further review.In a second ruling, they affirmed the decision, and then in November 22, the users' court in Northern District of California ruled that Haiku had breached LinkedIn's user agreement, and a settlement agreement was reached between the two parties.
So even though they had the right to scrape in, they didn't have the right to break the terms of service, if that makes sense, right?And so that's how that sort of, and I've said this before on this podcast and on All In, most of these things get settled, right?Yep. And so it's very hard to actually know what the law is.In a lot of these cases, and there's not like a bright line, it's always like interpretation.And the interpretation here, I think was, hey, you can scrape and read data off the web.And, you know, the data is not copyrightable.And an article might be but not data in the article. However, you can't break somebody's terms of service to use their service, right?Because that's an agreement you're making when you log into the website.
SPEAKER_01: Super complicated.How does... Well, I guess in this case, let me just put my share back up.Okay. In this case, we're okay because they're citing it.So we don't run into that issue.
SPEAKER_04: You know, even if you cite it, if you did scrape the person's website and break the terms of service, they could still say you're broke into my servers.Basically, you broke our agreement.I gave you an agreement to use my website.You agreed to it.Therefore, you've broken it.So if these folks have a terms of service, it's possible that this is they broke the terms of service. By scraping it like that.
SPEAKER_01: So when I clicked on this right here, and it took me to this, this came from Grandview Research, solar panel.
SPEAKER_04: And they've ingested the entire thing.And they're presenting it on their website.That's illegal.
SPEAKER_01: They didn't ingest it.I asked this question.Let's go through this workflow.Okay. It then went and searched the internet and then it basically used its web search connector to go through these different references.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, but see, it's got the whole entire article there.So they have republished the entire article on their website.That's the part that would be illegal.
SPEAKER_01: But do you consider this a republishing?Sure.The whole thing's there.
SPEAKER_04: They scraped the whole thing and published it on their website.So you don't have to visit their website now. They did not have the right to republish it on their website.If they put a snippet and linked back to it, that would be fine.Okay, so on the left where it's citing like one sentence?Yes.That would be the equivalent of Google doing that one box where they just take a clip?Yes. yeah but on the right here they've they've republished it so that if i was advising them on fair use and legal issues i would say hey you know here maybe truncate and say visit the website because then grand view research from the web solar vp house whoever this is grand view research on solar panels market size yeah they're getting no value here you've just stolen all their value This page that got this page that you linked on, and they're trying to sell reports, you basically sucked in the report, you've intercepted and given all the value, essentially, in my mind, stolen value that would have happened if they went there.
And so that's the challenge, I think, with these kind of services.Now, what somebody like freeberg will say or you know a lot of like google techno you know first people will say well if it's on the open web then you can do whatever you want and that's just like a level of naivete or like techno might is right that's just ridiculous like just because something's available on the web like listen netflix is available on the web that doesn't mean i can take
SPEAKER_01: you know queen's gambit and republish it you know it's still copyright immaterial so your recommendation would have been they can look at this entire page which is this is the page they looked at yes this is the whole page yeah they can go and extract this 165 billion to 355 billion which somehow came from this page somewhere right i'm sure if we look for unless that page
SPEAKER_04: has here, the terms of service are you cannot republish this, you cannot pull this data and republish it.And they agreed to it.Now, if that page is on the open web, and you didn't agree to the terms of service, but the now the question is, does the bot have to agree to the terms of service?And the boss does, if you send a bot to go do this stuff, you know, it does.And this is why people create bots for watering software. So I bet you the way this is working is they're firing up a browser to do it.And this is where like, being fair is the easiest path forward.You know, I think the new standard will be robots.txt and language model.txt or AI.txt, where they can say, hey, here's our rules. You can use this one time in a session.If you put at the start of the sentence, the following information is from this website for the complete information, go here.
And that you can present up to 10% of the page.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.Or something like that.How do we make a better internet?Because that's still kind of as a disjointed experience.Like I like what they did here.And honestly, I wasn't thinking about it.Like I was like, Oh, this is great.They got this information.They linked to where they got it from.And yeah,
But I see your point.How do we make a better internet?
SPEAKER_04: I think the robots.txt and a lot of the early Google work was pretty good.They always took a small portion of the original work and they linked back.And so they could always say, you know, and they said, if you don't want to be in the index, you don't have to. So you could opt out of it.Now, most people would say opting in would be the higher standard, but okay, let's just say opting out at least gives the person who owns it some power.And all you have to do is just put website.com slash robots.txt and you get out.But they also said, we're only going to take a small portion of the original content, the abstract.And they even got rid of recently the web cache.Remember they had web cache where you could see the whole page?They got rid of web cache because I think that was causing issues around copyright as well.
I suspect that's why it went away, but I can't confirm that. And so a better way to do it would be to say, if you want to use me in your language model or your AI product, we have a license.And here's how you can pay for that license.Go here.And it might be you pay automatically through an API.It might be a clearinghouse. like the music industry has, or it might just be talk to our sales team.You know, if it's ready, they might just say, Hey, you know, if you want to license it, talk to this person in sales and set up a meeting.And so, yeah, some sort of automated rights would be good.If you look at YouTube, they also came up with a solution, which was if somebody is using my content, I have the right to claim the advertising, right?
So if you were to do a Mark Knopfler song on your channel, if we played Mark Knopfler right now, His representatives would claim this video, put ads against it, and they would get the money.
SPEAKER_01: They get all the monetization.
SPEAKER_04: All the monetization.So I, as a creator, can be like, you know what?I just wanted to play a dope song.I don't care about the $6 I'm making from this video a year.Yeah, go ahead and take the money.I'm not in it for the money.Now, other people... There's an entire genre of reacting to songs.Yes.And they claim fair use.
And it's a bit of a hack.
SPEAKER_01: Because people type in, I want to listen to Sultans of Swing.Oh, yeah.There's a ton of these videos.It's like the first time someone's ever heard something.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so just type in Sultans of Sing reaction video and pull it up on the screen and you'll see it on YouTube.I like watching these sometimes because it's kind of funny for me to see people.But it's now become offshore.So there are some people in... like I think the Philippines, or it might be somewhere in Africa, are they have armies of people doing this format, which is reactive videos.And there's so many look reaction comes up automatically.Wait, do you see how many there are?Okay, so this one's from two years ago, next one, four months ago, next one, three months ago, a real number of views to Yes, next one, 10 months ago, another one, another one, keep going. And those guys are like the originals, by the way there.And then I know that guy is a famous person.
But like, you can see how many of these videos there are.And then what you'll notice is a lot of the folks are from foreign countries.And you're like, wait a second, what's going on?I think that some group of people in other countries have figured out this is a hack. Now, if you pull one of these up and you look at the back guy, classical composer, reacts to the song, the Daily Doug.I love the Daily Doug.This guy's great.He's a professional composer.And he's had a problem because he responds and he goes really into detail.It's super educational.
And he doesn't play the song all the way through.He pauses it and stuff like that.So it's not a replacement for Spotify.
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
SPEAKER_04: And some of them, they have disclaimers.And then some of them, these get, you know, he loses his monetization.And then he said in his videos, I, you know, I don't fight every claim because he makes his money from Patreon.But then there are some people who insist he can't publish it.So then he gets multiple strikes against his account.And if you get three strikes on YouTube, your account gets turned off forever. And so three copyright claims are done forever.And so you have to be careful if you do too many of these and you have to fight them.So he'll spend all this time on a reaction video of a certain song.
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
SPEAKER_04: The artist will not say, I want to claim it.They'll say, you can't use it.Oh, period.
SPEAKER_01: Full stop.Wow.Because I was going to ask, can't they just claim it?But they say, no, they're so pissed off.They just say, you're done.Yes. you're done.
SPEAKER_04: And then he gets caught in a copyright claim.So anyway, there's abuse in every system.And so YouTube and Google have navigated this over decades.And I think there's something to this give and take where people get to opt out, or they have a way to collect the money from it.That, you know, feels at least somewhat fair you can actually publish an entire version of star wars if you edit it yeah so people have re-edited like the three prequels into one movie and then put clone wars video into it and they can just make like their own movie like their own two-hour movie out of like seven hours of videos yeah and they publish it on youtube or other places and they as long as they don't claim ownership of it or monetize it it seems like lucasart is okay with that okay
SPEAKER_01: We started in one place, which is- Yeah, we went to a totally different place.No, but it's all related though.We started in a place where these guys have created this, I think, a really good model.I thought they did a really good job.And I think you agreed, they've done a good job of citing where this has come from.Absolutely.To me, of all the models that are out there right now, this is awesome because you can now at least press that this is not a hallucination and you can go find out where these numbers come from.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I've always felt sourcing is super easy to do.The way they're doing it is they put the sources on the side as opposed to putting them in line like you would do in a college paper.I like when you put the number one at the end, like you do in a college paper on Wikipedia.So I would like to see, I would just make that one little edit for the citations.But otherwise, I give it a B+.I give it a B+.I would use it.I like it.I think it should exist in the world and people should have the ability to opt out of it. And what they should aspire to do is send as much traffic and give as much recognition to the people who they get the content from so that they don't piss them off.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.Maybe it's just like you said, a little bit, a little short snippet here on the right or down below, and then basically link people out so that- What's your rate on that?
SPEAKER_04: I give it a B plus.What did you give it?
SPEAKER_01: Well, so for me, we've been spending a lot of time in and around reg for the last year and a half.I was blown away because the number one issue I have And it's funny because I end up having this argument with friends where they pull something up from Chad GPT and I said, well, you know, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's real.And then, you know, we'll do like a search and find out that it wasn't real.So for me, this was an A because I would send everybody to command R and say, if you really want a Q&A style approach to a language model, this is where you can do it and you can get the references.So we know that what it's telling us is real.
SPEAKER_04: So what is your grade again?
SPEAKER_01: I'm giving it an A. Okay, perfect.I'm giving it an A. A and a B plus.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's great.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.Awesome.Yeah.I had a friend that recently got in trouble on a flight.He was having a couple of drinks before.And then when he boarded, he was carrying a drink in. And then he got rid.Yeah, exactly.And he got rid of it just as he was sitting down and he wasn't trying to do anything nefarious.Then they asked him to get off the plane and he pulled out Chad GPT to ask what the rule was that he was trying to show them.
And then basically the, you know, the, the agents and everyone else, like, yeah, that's not, that's not the rule.Like you can't walk on a plane with an open drink.So.And did he wind up getting bounced? Yeah, he did.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I mean, my advice is, yeah, if you really like alcohol that much, there's something about people who love alcohol.I'm not a drinker, as you know.I've seen you have a cocktail once in a while.You know what you can do if you're really that into it is you could get a bottle of Snapple. and put your vodka with Snapple and not have this issue but I always see these dopey people not your friends dopey but other dopey people who pull out like they pull out a bottle of like vodka on a plane and I'm like are you dumb like Just pour it into a Snapple bottle and you're drinking a Snapple.Or if you're going to a concert or whatever, you're walking down the street and you can't have an open bottle.
SPEAKER_01: Snapple is the way to go.Like you got the hack.I think he was just, you know, there's like, his plane was delayed.He was drinking at the bar and he just took the drink from there.That was it.Like sort of, yeah.He gave it wheels, as we said.
SPEAKER_04: He gave it wheels.
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I like that.Give it wheels.
SPEAKER_04: All right.Well, this was a drunk driving, very poor taste joke when I grew up in Brooklyn.People would ask you, hey, you want to give it wheels?And people are like, yeah, give it wheels.And they would just put your drink in a to-go cup for your ride home.And people were tanked.
SPEAKER_00: So don't drink and drive, folks.Don't drink and drive.Don't do it.Don't do it.Okay, one last one.
SPEAKER_01: This one's really cool.So end of last year, we talked about multimodal models becoming really, really good. This is a Chinese company actually called DeepSeek.And they have this new model, very small, only 7 billion parameters.And they have some different examples here.And I just pulled one of them up, which is how many people in this image and why.And so basically there's one person, he's wearing a pink shirt, standing in front of a large mirror.So it's able to figure out that it's a single person standing in front of a mirror. Why I really liked what this team has done, all these models are open source, they're available to use.And to get a 7 billion parameter model that's able to, you know,
SPEAKER_04: reason this type of reason exactly over images this is going to give us superpowers and so this is going to end up everywhere for us this is really interesting you can see this on hugging face.co yeah yeah and the name of it is deep sea just do a search for d-e-e-p-s-e-e-k and yeah the image given to it is how many people are in the image period space why question mark And it's a person holding a mirror as if they're putting the mirror on the wall, like they're installing it.So it's a round mirror, and you can see it's got the reflection of the person.So you would think the computer would get it wrong that there were two people in this image.Yes.But it says, this is one person in the image, period.The individual appears to be a man wearing a pink shirt.He doesn't want to assume gender.It's a little bit woke.Standing in front of a large round mirror that reflects his image in it.
He seems to be adjusting or touching something on the wall beside him, possibly checking for any infractions or making sure it's aligned properly.Wow.So it knows, because I said it looks like he's trying to adjust it.This action suggests he might be involved in some sort of home improvement project or simply ensuring everything looks neat and tidy.I mean... That is... That's just next level.Come on.Yes. It's next level.They're describing the person's actions through the image.That's bonkers.
Like how many images must it be trained on to understand somebody's involved in a home improvement project, that they're in a mirror, that they're a man, you know, that they're wearing a pink shirt.I mean, this is nuts.And it is kind of a pink jacket.So a human would know that's a pink members only jacket as opposed to a shirt.But hey, at least there's something that a human can figure out in this image.This is an A. Yeah. I mean, based on this one, but is there another one?Click on one more.Let's take a look.Yeah, yeah.
So there's... Click on one more.Let's see.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we'll just do... Which one of these do you like?
SPEAKER_04: Help me write Python code based on it.Oh, what is this app about?I like that one too.Both of those I like.Yeah, pick either one.Let's do this one.Okay, let's do it.All right, so it's showing... Okay, help me write a Python code based on the image.And the image is a thing.
And if this then that right kind of situation image depicts a flowchart.Okay, for a Python code that simulates a game where the user is asked to guess a number between one and 10.The flowchart includes several condition statements, which are represented by different color boxes with text in them.Here's how you can write the corresponding Python code.Okay, there we go. I mean, yeah, it's just getting so good.And I've come to the conclusion that even though many of these things are not ready for primetime, I'm convinced that they will figure it out at a rapid pace.Unlike, say, self-driving... which is incredibly hard because of the edge cases and because of like, you know, what's at stake, like what's at stake describing an image or writing some software code that you're going to edit anyway, because you could take this and put it into Devin, right?
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's another one, which is like, what are your, it's like, Hey, what is this app about?So it's like minutes. listened, meditations, points, courses saved.It appears to be a meditation or mindfulness tracking application.This is indicated by your statistics section, which shows metrics such as meditation, minutes listened, and points. Right.Additionally, there's your mood.This stuff is incredible.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's really.And if you can describe these things, what's interesting is then you could write the next series of prompts.So by describing what's in the image, now you could say, what questions would humans have next? Yes.Right?Or what would a human being like to do next?
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_04: You know?Oh, okay.Yeah, let's go ahead and ask it.
SPEAKER_01: Given this information.Yeah.And let's see what it does.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.Like who makes the app, maybe?Yeah.Yeah.Based on the propriety of the image, humans might have the following questions.How many minutes did I spend meditating today?What is the total number of meditation sessions completed?
SPEAKER_00: How many courses have I done?You just stop thinking.Oh.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's incredible.Can I set reminders for when to meditate or listen to content?Yeah, I mean, it's incredible.I mean, it's totally incredible.Give us 10 questions that somebody who is using... They took the perspective of the person using the app, what they might be.Yeah.Wow.Are there any specific activities or challenges within the app that contribute to earning points?Like, how do I hack this app to level up?I mean, wow.
Isn't this just... Wild.And with 7 billion parameters and the size of this, I could run it perhaps on my M3 laptop.
SPEAKER_01: You can for sure run it on your laptop.
SPEAKER_00: And this is getting to the place where you can probably run it on your phone.
SPEAKER_04: I mean, here we go, folks.It's a brave new world.And Sonny and I are here to help you with it.This week in startups.com slash AI.This one in A. Let's give them, this was an A, right?It's an A. A. Yeah.A. A. Yeah.I mean, 7B.And this is the thing.I was talking to somebody the other day and they were just telling me, you know...
you know, these big models are expensive.I was talking to the CEO of Glean, I think, which is in the program.And I think Mamoon from Kleiner backed him.And so the head of Glean was on and he's like, you know, sometimes like we're seeing customers who can use it.I think it was him, but I may have juxtaposed with somebody else. It might be better to ask the question three or four times to these other cheaper, faster models and then ask a follow-up question on that and then give an answer than to use the most expensive model.
SPEAKER_01: Yes, that's called reflection.It's actually a term with an X. They call that reflection, just like humans reflect.And so one of the things is all these scores, these benchmarks you see, J. Cal, they're based on one shot.If you do it multiple times and if it goes fast enough, then who cares?Because if it's just running fast enough, do you really care that it answered in one, you know, because you can get the score way up.
SPEAKER_04: So do a bunch of smaller models get five answers real quick.But then how do you determine which is the best answer?Or how does AI determine what's the best answer?
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's the grounding.Yeah.I mean, there's different ways.One, the humans obviously do the reinforcement learning, but to the grounding against actual data.Right.So like what we saw earlier with command are, that's the intersection of these things.That's why I don't think we'll ever have a moment where they'll exist without the internet.They'll always have to have the internet and the internet will become, it's sort of the way for these models to go ground themselves in whatever resolution they've come to. Got it.
SPEAKER_04: This will be their fact-checking department, their reference desk, their card catalog, their library, their Wikipedia, just a way for them to level set that they got it right.All right, listen, if you guys want to get it right, this week at startups.com slash AI and x.com slash Sundeep. x.com slash Jason.You can follow the show TWI Startups on Twitter.And I'm doing some TikTok experiments.So search for Jason Calacanis on TikTok.I did my first TikTok today where I just mentioned Tiananmen Square, the Uyghurs, and banning TikTok.And I just want to see if it gets past the censors and anybody sees it.
SPEAKER_01: Don't do it.
SPEAKER_03: I'm tempting the CZP.
SPEAKER_04: I was just curious.It was nice to know you.Hey, listen, it was good to know me.I'll be getting re-education with Jack Ma.We'll see you all next time.Bye-bye.
SPEAKER_02: Bye.
