SPEAKER_01: I think notebooks are great for ideas. I think like a well-managed to-do list is a software product that you need to adopt. And there's like 80 of them. I actually don't even care which one you adopt. But it's like when I tell something to founders and then they write it down in a notebook, I'm like, that's gone forever. But they look cool. They have like a fountain pen and they're like taking beautiful notes, Michael. We all know that everything important is in the Moleskine notebook.
SPEAKER_01: This is Michael Seibel with Dalton Caldwell. Today we're going to talk about how future billionaires get shit done. So Dalton, you were inspired by a PG post when thinking of this idea, right?
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Paul Graham wrote this really famous blog post, I believe called Maker Schedule, Manager Schedule, where, you know, he said something that all of us have thought before, but he put it very succinctly and in great words. And so if you haven't read it before, anyone out there on the internet, you should read it. Just Google Maker Schedule, Manager Schedule, we can put a link in. And he introduces the idea of the difference between how makers, i.e. programmers in his case, organize their time to be productive versus folks that are managers. All right? And so it's great terminology. It's good stuff.
SPEAKER_01: Yes. So let's start with the Maker mode. You were a developer in your startup. I was a business guy in my startup. I think in many ways, this stuff came a little bit more natively to you. And I had to learn this stuff by like basically destroying the productivity of my co-founders. So how did you think about Maker's mode as a founder? Most companies are set up around a manager schedule where you have a day packed with
SPEAKER_00: meeting after meeting. And so if you're a programmer at a big company, you would have to, you know, you'd have like an hour to program here and an hour to program there. And this is bad. This was not conducive to building things. Okay. And so to just walk through my perspective as someone that, you know, was programming back in the day when I was a startup founder. When you're programming, the more of the program you can keep in your head at any one time,
SPEAKER_00: the easier it is for you to know what's going on and have the context up here to make changes and fix bugs. And it takes like an hour or two cold of looking at a program and figuring stuff out for it to get loaded into RAM, so to speak. And so if you're interrupted, like if you have to program in our increments, man, are you going to suck. Like you constantly have to restart your state every time you program. And so a great maker's schedule is something like an eight hour uninterrupted block of time. And his argument, I think he was also talking about this from the perspective of an artist or a musician. Like if you wanted to record an album or write music, or if you wanted to write a book, the same deal. If you had to write a book in 20 minute increments, I think a lot of writers wouldn't love that.
SPEAKER_01: Fair. Which is so much different than the business guy. Like, you know, I was the business guy at my startup and you certainly can do email in 20 minute increments or hour increments. And so I remember having this conversation with Emmet where he said, Michael, imagine that I'm doing ridiculously complicated word problems and you're interrupting me in the middle of them. And I was like, then it clicked. I was like, oh, well, I've had to do hard word problems. I went to school. I had to do that. Shit, that's what your day is like? Oh, one, that sounds a lot harder than writing emails. Number two, I would hate to be interrupted. And once he said that, it kind of clicked. Before he said that, I just assumed, well, you know, he's typing, I'm typing. Yeah, he's typing things.
SPEAKER_00: And I remember when I read the post, what resonated with me is I felt like my work day really began around five or six p.m. Isn't that weird? And that's because that's when things would quiet down and I would stop getting email in the building I was working out of would quiet down. And that's where actually all the good programming happened was at the end of the day.
SPEAKER_01: What was interesting was that for us, we basically had to figure out how to build that in. I think in the beginning, organically it happened because, you know, that was our sleep cycle. We were all living in an apartment together. But when we had more employees and we had an office, you know, we literally and this is something that I just noticed happened organically. Nothing got done before lunch. Like getting to work was all about like getting in, answering your email, doing a couple of things, like it was just like no one who was writing code even wanted to start writing code before lunch because lunch was the big like F you in the middle of the day. And our whole trick was, one, how do we not serve a lunch that makes everyone go to sleep? And two, how do we make that post lunchtime free of everything? PG in some ways designed YC a little bit that way. Right. I think that's counterintuitive to a lot of founders. Like one, there aren't that many events. You don't have classes all day at YC. Like we try to take as little time as possible during your week so you can actually get shit done. Two, there's a hard deadline, Demo Day. And three, I think people are often surprised, like a good portion of YC is just asking you, what are you going to accomplish by Demo Day? And then asking you every week, well, did you do it? And it's you confronting the yes or no of that. It turns out that like there's a lot of magic on that and he wanted to build as much maker time as possible in the program. I think in this kind of balance between maker mode and manager mode, what people should be trying to do is maximize their productivity when they're in that mode. Right. How do you maximize productivity? So when I think about manager mode, for me, I always like to think about this like, okay, if I'm going to be managing my time between my to-do list, which is just another way of saying shit that's actually important to get done, meetings, email, and Slack, I always think that my to-do list comes first. Like whenever I'm being productive, I start at the to-do list and I do everything there and then I check those things. Well, because you control it. Yes. Because I control it. Versus if it's inbox driven, other people are in control of your time, which is watch
SPEAKER_00: out. Horrible.
SPEAKER_01: Horrible. The second thing is around meetings. And we talk about this a lot. You're going to have to have some meetings. I've seen a couple of tricks, but they can all be reduced down to write shit down. The worst thing is when you have to have another meeting because people didn't write the shit down from the first meeting. That is when you know you punched yourself in the face. But I'm so shocked. It's like, no, I'm smart. Let me push you on that because you and I agree, but let's make this clear to the audience.
SPEAKER_00: What are we saying? What we mean is say you and I are in a meeting and we agree on something. If Narwhalus writes it down, it's like it never happened. It's like we were like patting ourselves on the back. What a great meeting, right Michael? No one writes it down. We're like, what are we talking about?
SPEAKER_01: Even if I didn't think I needed it. Oh, let's write down the agenda. Let's write down notes where we decided. Oh, that would be great. Any other things that have made you productive as a manager?
SPEAKER_00: The number one thing that I do that I realized that a lot of the other successful founders did too was I had my analytics dashboard or whatever was important KPIs on the business up on my screen 24-7 and I would stare at it all the time. And I actually can memorize. This is even the case for YC, man. I don't even know if you know this, but like a lot of our internal stats I have memorized. And it's because I stare at them all the time. No one told me to do that. This is just a me thing.
SPEAKER_00: But I'm like obsessed with like the internal key KPIs for anything I'm working on. I'm just like an addict to look at that stuff. I think that that is such what we see on the other side and I completely agree with you.
SPEAKER_01: That was a huge thing, especially for my second startup. That was a really huge thing. It's funny when you talk to a founder who knows their stats well, they just talk about their stats so differently. First of all, they don't round off numbers to the nearest zero. But second of all, they know whether they're up or down 10% at any given time. Whereas other founders are just like, yeah, I think it was an up week.
SPEAKER_01: How do you not know? How do you not know if your revenue went up this week? How do you not know that? What are you doing?
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't get it. I don't get when someone is like operating a business and it's like, what was our revenue last month? But like the bookkeeper, they give that to me at the end of the month.
SPEAKER_01: And it's like, what? Or people didn't know. I mean, for us, it was DAUs and it was like amount of video watched. But it's like everyone on the founding team knew when we had less traffic today than yesterday. Everyone. Just like in their bones.
SPEAKER_00: I think my last point on this manager schedule, a little thing I would just add is what I've learned that I did not appreciate when I was a founder is that the maker schedule vibe works for sales and talking to customers too. And it's scheduling 20 minute blocks to talk to customers is not the same as an eight hour. Even if it's not literally your programmer using the maker's concept to apply to the things that are the main event of your startup at any one time. And for many folks that is sales. Yes. Yeah. You should be scheduling eight hour blocks. Like if your job as the co-founder is to be doing sales and it's like a couple of slivers
SPEAKER_00: in between other things on your schedule, I don't think that's going to go well. You know, it's interesting.
SPEAKER_01: I agree with you. It's basically this idea of get all of this stupid crap so productive that you can clear out that every founder can clear out a chunk of their time for the maker schedule. And like some founders are going to have to do more of this non-development blocking tackling. Others are going to have to do less of it. But I completely agree with you. It's really hard to get anything at a high level done in 20 minute blocks. Let's talk though about the opposite of all these things. So the premise of this chat is how future billionaires get shit done. Let's talk about what we see great founders not do. What comes to mind, Dalton? What are founders avoiding?
SPEAKER_00: Look, I think the trickiest thing for everybody is social media. It's like social media is the black hole for time. And you know, we're all guilty of it too. Like it's addictive. And so what's tricky is how to have a healthy relationship with social media so that you
SPEAKER_00: aren't spending 24-7 paying attention to who the main character on Twitter is that said something dumb and everyone's like making fun of them. It's so hard not to do that constantly. And it's also not hard to think that like you are a startup founder and you're succeeding and you like did well. But if I actually, if like a hidden camera was shadowing you through the day, it was like you just read Twitter all day. You know what I'm saying? Like imagine if there was like a hidden camera auditing what people actually did with a lot of their time. I think some people out there would be pretty embarrassed if there was a full clear-eyed accounting of where their time went. It's like hey Discord here, TechCrunch here, Twitter here, you know. It's like how much time are you actually spending on not those things?
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's hard man.
SPEAKER_01: I had a Twitter problem and you know one of the things that I realized is that sometimes willpower isn't enough. You know like what I did was I unfollowed everyone on Twitter and then I installed this like Chrome app that basically disables like three-quarters of Twitter's features. And I was just you know it was like this is an addictive thing. I need an intervention. And that did it. Like that kind of killed my Twitter because it was just like oh well. And it was funny because for a while Twitter kept on trying to feed me interesting articles and interesting stuff but it wasn't. They couldn't really do it because I was not following anyone. I wasn't really interacting with many tweets and so eventually just like it broke.
SPEAKER_00: But yeah I mean I uninstalled Facebook years ago so I don't have it. I don't have notifications turned on. I don't have the Twitter app installed on my phone. So again like everyone should do what works for them but people that actually are super
SPEAKER_00: productive do abnormal things to turn all this crap off. Yeah. Like you have to like aggressively be abnormal on protecting your time. Yes. Because if you don't the world is going to steal your time from you. It's going to steal your energy from you. And like that's a bad tradeoff if you're a startup founder man. What a waste of time.
SPEAKER_01: You know it's funny it's like it's almost like there are these two sets of tools. There's one set of tools that allow you to organize your time better and there's another set of tools that protect your time. And yeah effective people use both constantly. And I think ineffective people sometimes are mistaken and they think if I were just had a stronger will I like needing tools is the problem. Like successful people are just have a stronger will. And that's not true. It's like no successful people reach for tools all the time. Like successful people recognize their weaknesses and actually reach for tools. Now here's one that comes up a lot. The collecting of mentors, advisors, weird credentials like advice. Oh I went through three different accelerators and an idea lab. Oh my advisory board. I'm building my advisory board. Why do you think founders are attracted to that versus just building something and launching it? It smells like you're doing successful startup stuff.
SPEAKER_00: You're like part of the community of startup this and you know like there's all this stuff you can do.
SPEAKER_00: And I'm not saying like it's all bad but it's a bottomless pit of time suck. Like you could go so far deep in there. You could be in that bottomless pit for years and be a startup founder that's never built a product and has never gotten a single customer because you just cycled in and out of various forms of startup mentorship.
SPEAKER_00: It's weird. It's like going to Hollywood and getting acting lessons. And like you just you're going to like this acting lessons mode for like years and you're like yeah I'm an actor. And it's like you know what I'm saying like it feels like you're making progress right?
SPEAKER_01: But you're not. You know I think a lot of it also has to do with founders being a little bit afraid and thinking these things de-risk. Well if I have an advisory board it's going to de-risk my startup. It's a bunch of smart people saying my idea is good or if I do a bunch of mentorship it de-risks my startup I get a lot of advice. And I don't know the thing we keep on saying over and over again is like the two things that ridiculously re-de-risk your startup, three things. We'll get to the third in a second. First one is talking to your customers. The second one is building a launching product. And it's like God forbid you're doing anything more than you're doing those things. You are not taking the optimal de-risk strategy. And then the last one we see a lot of people trying to hedge their bets. So many people trying to be like well I'm keeping grad school open. I've got a Google job offer. I've got a Jane Street or whatever the new tech finance thing of the minute is. And I'm talking to three friends about doing a startup. And I'm kind of moving all those pieces down the board at the same time. And we get asked questions like okay so how do I optimize this? I'm like I don't think you can be great at those four things at the same time. It's hard enough to be great at one of those things. But once again why shouldn't I hedge Delta? Isn't the optimal move to hedge? How do I know I'm making the right decision?
SPEAKER_00: When you're taking a high risk life decision, like we said on this video series a number of times, you're going to look stupid and you're going to take risk and there's a chance you're going to be like that was a huge mistake. And you want to barter with the universe. You want to be like come on can't I de-risk this? You want to think that you can be smarter than the system to somehow give up nothing and have no downside and only have upside. And the more you want to try to barter with the universe to be like okay first I'll get a job at Google and I'll save money and then I'll invest in crypto and then I'll do this. You want to barter with the universe to have no risk. And I guess I get where people are coming from. I'm not sure that's a real thing. And I think it's being more real with yourself is like yeah I'm taking risks. Like quitting my job at Google is a risk and I may regret it but I may not. But I'm doing this with eyes wide open and by actually putting my full heart into anything I do, whatever that is including not quitting my job, how can you have regrets about that?
SPEAKER_00: Being proud of the work you do. I mean this is what I tell a lot of folks. I do a lot of office hours with people that are shutting down. I didn't win today. It's like their final office hours because they're shutting down their startup. But I tend to tell people similar stuff which is like look if you're proud of the job you did, if you had heart and you gave it your all and you feel like you learned stuff then great job and you should view this as an affirming experience. And so like I'm proud of you, I'm proud of the job you did, I know you had your heart into this thing and like we'll get the next one.
SPEAKER_01: You know? I think that that message has to be told because it is rewarding but founders have to be kind of reminded that they didn't fail. Like it's not like or let's just put it this way, it's not like failing a test that like
SPEAKER_01: a basic math test that you just didn't study for. It's like it's not like that. Like you tried to do something that so few people in the world are successful at. Failing is not really failing like at all.
SPEAKER_01: It's like trying to be a pro athlete like where you're really good in college and try
SPEAKER_00: to go pro and you like make a team and then you get cut in the first year like that's still pretty awesome. Yeah. You still were maybe one of the best thousand people on earth who could play basketball.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah and so it's like you know again it would be great if you were number one in the world
SPEAKER_00: but like people are going to respect what you did and if you're proud in your heart of the work you did then you will view this as a positive thing in your life you know?
SPEAKER_01: And I always tell the people who are hedging I always say this the other side you know in our world it's really competitive and what happens if there's a team that's exactly as competent as you and they're not hedging? They're always going to win you know? They're always going to beat you. So how much better do you have to be than that team if you're splitting your resources two ways, three ways, four ways? So it's not even a good strategy even if you were trying to think strategically unfortunately. No. So yeah. So there you go. Those are some of the things that future billionaires do to get shit done and some of the things that they avoid as well. Great chat belt. Sounds good. Thanks man.
