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SPEAKER_01: Dr. Joy Buolamwini warns that AI could hardwire all of the biases of today's world into our future. But this week on Notes from America, the poet of code explains how we can write a different future in tech. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.
SPEAKER_06: Hey, it's Lutthuf. We've got an oldie but a goodie today from 2011. This episode, and I mean, I can say this because I had nothing to do with making it. It pulls off one of the most difficult and satisfying things a story, really a story in any medium can do, which is that it stretches your conception of what a human being is capable of. And besides being just a jaw dropping portrait of a human with a brain, it also just makes you wonder what obscure superpowers we are all just walking around with, totally oblivious that they are even superpowers. Anyway, if you haven't heard before, I'm jealous of you. If you have, completely holds up even 10 plus years later. This is four track mind. Enjoy.
SPEAKER_11: Radio lab. Yes, we Yes, it is. No, we're doing the introduction. Ready? Here we go. Let's do it for real. Hey, I'm Jad Abumrad. I'm Robert Krelowitz. This is radio lab. And today on the podcast, I want to tell you about a guy who hears music in a way that is just extraordinary. Yeah. And painful. Just thinking about this story makes my head hurt. That's
SPEAKER_11: Jessica Benko. She's a reporter. Yep. And she's the one who initially told me the story.
SPEAKER_10: So a little while ago, I went up to visit this guy. Hi, Bob Milne. Bob, it's nice to see you. Excuse my snowy feet here. And he lives in a tiny town in Michigan with his wife Linda. Hi. And who is he? He's an amazing piano player. The Library of Congress actually
SPEAKER_10: called him a national treasure. Really? He's had this special relationship with music ever since he was a boy. Did you grow up with any other instruments inside the house other than the piano? Or is that what you started out? Well, I am my mother made me take piano lessons.
SPEAKER_08: And I hated it. I didn't like the sound of minor keys and the piano teachers had me playing a recital in which there's a Schubert minor key piece in it. So on the recital, I played it in major. And everyone thought that was a travesty. These days, though, his main music
SPEAKER_10: isn't so much Schubert. It's actually ragtime. One, two, three, four. One, two, three, four.
SPEAKER_08: The rhythms. So the thing about ragtime is that oftentimes the player is actually playing
SPEAKER_10: two different rhythms at the same time, one with the left hand, one with the right hand. And then he puts the rhythms of three in the right hand. The thing about Bob is he can do this like
SPEAKER_10: times a thousand. What does that even mean? Well, let me back up. I first heard about Bob from a
SPEAKER_10: neurologist named Kirsten Batterman. Kirsten Batterman, who is now at Penn State University.
SPEAKER_09: First time I heard about Bob Milne was her friend. Kirsten heard about Bob from a colleague who'd
SPEAKER_10: seen him play for an audience. Well, I might just take a tune like a... He was actually playing
SPEAKER_10: multiple rhythms with his two different hands and switching back and forth between different pieces of music and carrying on a conversation at the same time. You can look up videos of Bob on YouTube, and you can see him performing and throwing out jokes, but at times you'll see him carry on a full conversation while playing. From the perspective of a neurologist, this is actually really hard because the part of your brain that should be engaged in playing a piece of music that complicated should also be engaged in having a conversation. The talking part and the playing
SPEAKER_11: part are the same part? They're the same part in most of us. For most people, that sort of thing,
SPEAKER_10: playing a complex piece of music and having a conversation would interfere with one another. Yes, that's what you usually would think unless you're highly skilled and you play maybe one
SPEAKER_09: of music at a time that you've done multiple times, but even then it would be very difficult to this degree. So Kirsten got in touch with Bob and she started asking him some questions.
SPEAKER_10: About the way you would perceive music. In the course of chatting with him and talking about how he perceives music and all of this, he happened to say to her... That I could hear an entire
SPEAKER_08: symphony in my head, and I didn't think that was too big a deal because I always listened to two of them at once. He told her... I only have to focus on the one melody that I want to hear at a
SPEAKER_09: given time and then that's a piece I play, but I hear them all ongoing. Did he just say he can
SPEAKER_11: hear two different symphonies in his head? At the same time. And we thought this was very unusual.
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, but I mean are we talking the full symphonies or just the melodies? Every instrument. Every
SPEAKER_11: instrument. And he can focus in and... Turn one of them up, one of them down, and they both run
SPEAKER_08: simultaneously. So then she pushed to the envelope and asked me if I can I hear three... Three pieces of music. I said, well, I don't know. Never tried. But he was like, yeah, I think I could do three.
SPEAKER_09: When we challenged him a little bit, actually he said I can't do four if you ask me. What? But I
SPEAKER_08: wouldn't go any further than that. No, that's total b******. Just four symphonies at the same time?
SPEAKER_11: That's just nothing but noise. Absolute cacophony. You know the four pieces of music that just, wow,
SPEAKER_09: I said nobody can do this. It was really critical. Yeah, because it's not true. We had to think about how to test this. Let me tell you about how the experiment worked and then tell me if you think
SPEAKER_10: it's true. All right. So the first thing Kirsten had to do was find a control, someone to compare
SPEAKER_10: Bob to. So she found a conductor, Peter Perry, who's the former conductor of the Winston-Salem
SPEAKER_09: Symphony, who is himself an accomplished musician. Before the test, she sent him and Bob four pieces
SPEAKER_09: of music. We had Schubert's Symphony. We had Brahms. We had Beethoven. And finally, one from Mendelssohn.
SPEAKER_10: So you have to keep in mind, these four symphonies are in different keys and different tempos.
SPEAKER_09: Very different themes and instrumentations. And the challenge for them was to learn these four pieces of music. Completely memorize them. Four different tunes and they only gave me a couple
SPEAKER_08: of days to listen to them. And then play them in their mind. And we would then ask them where in a
SPEAKER_09: certain piece they would be after an arbitrary time. I'm not really following what they do. So here's what they did.
SPEAKER_11: They put these guys in the scanner and they said to them, I want you to play the music in your mind.
SPEAKER_11: Play the music in your mind. Close your eyes and imagine the music. So no music is playing out loud.
SPEAKER_11: No music playing just inside their head. And are they imagining it however they want or on the CD?
SPEAKER_11: Exactly what they had heard on the CD. So same instruments coming in and out? Yep. Same tempo?
SPEAKER_11: Yep. So if it was Vivace on the CD, Vivace in their head? Exactly. And why were they doing this again? Well, they wanted to see if these guys could track via memory these really complicated pieces of
SPEAKER_10: music. So they put the guys in the scanner and they're laying there. And on a screen in front of them the word start flashes. And at that moment they start playing the first piece of music back in their head. In the control room they're tracking the music themselves to follow the timing. The
SPEAKER_11: researchers? Yeah. Oh so while Bob and this dude are imagining it they're actually keeping track of where the real CD is? Exactly. They let it go for a while. And at an arbitrary moment they say stop.
SPEAKER_10: And then they say sing to me exactly where you are in the music. Like the note? The exact phrase. They go back they compare the timing. To the CD. Right. To find out if these guys can really
SPEAKER_10: recreate inside their heads exactly what they'd heard. And? So our conductor, our control was able
SPEAKER_09: to listen to one piece of music at a time and was really right on target with the right answer and timing was in a second. Wow. So this conductor's imagined Symphony was only a second off from the
SPEAKER_11: real one? Yep. Same with Bob. So Bob's within a note or two. Not bad. Now round two. The multi-song task
SPEAKER_09: we called it. They told them both to start that first piece of music again. And then a little bit
SPEAKER_10: later they said start the second piece of music. In your head. Simultaneous. Yep.
SPEAKER_10: Alright I'm already like come on. It's crazy. Like this is we slipped in the fantasy. Well
SPEAKER_10: and that's what happened for the conductor. He couldn't do it. He couldn't do two simultaneously.
SPEAKER_09: Yeah of course he couldn't do it. It's impossible. There was no chance. He said this is an overwhelming impossible task. His brain just shut down. Well like he died or something? He stopped even being able
SPEAKER_10: to track the first piece of music. He just got confused. Now we go to Bob. They put me into the
SPEAKER_08: MRI and they asked me start tune one in your head. So I did. Then roughly 10-15 seconds later I got a message on the screen that says continue listening to one start two. And then 15 seconds later continue listening to tunes one and two start three. And then the same thing with tune four. Then on the screen it said stop. And then Kirsten came on a little I could hear her talking to me from somewhere and she says Bob where are you in tune one. So I told her and I described what the
SPEAKER_08: piece was playing at that point. And the same thing with tune two. Three and four. She announced that I was exactly right on to the note in each one of the symphonies. Jess you're telling me something
SPEAKER_11: that's just not really I'm not a lot of integrity. Just my common sense right now is yelling like a three-year-old. It really is mind boggling to think about makes my brain hurt. But you know we proved
SPEAKER_09: yeah you can do it. When Kirsten gave you the different pieces of music to listen to did any
SPEAKER_10: of them clash? No. No they don't clash. They're all just playing different pieces. There's nothing
SPEAKER_07: chaotic about it. All right so assuming this is true how does he do this? How does he explain to
SPEAKER_11: himself how he does this? So I think there's two things going on here. The first has to do with
SPEAKER_10: emotion. Bob is using different brain areas I think. In his case probably more emotional brain
SPEAKER_09: emotion deepens the way that we experience things, makes stronger memories. And Bob has a really
SPEAKER_10: strong emotional relationship with music. Don't we all? Yeah but it's a little bit beyond the whole minor keys make me feel sad. He has really specific emotions associated with individual keys on the scale. When I hear C major it's a very bland key. It's like I don't know how to describe
SPEAKER_08: it's like eating water soup or something like that. But D major the bright key that makes me want to dance even though I can't dance. And every key every one of the keys of the piano had a different emotional attachment to me. So for Bob if just the keys are triggering different emotions
SPEAKER_10: yeah imagine what it must be like when you get to actual music. So you think that's something about
SPEAKER_11: he experiences the emotions of the music makes it etch more deeply in his brain or something? Yeah I think he's when he's got these four pieces of music going he's not thinking hard about tracking
SPEAKER_10: each one of them he's already in them he feels them inside his body and you can feel more with them one feeling at a time. So that's one idea. Hey y'all I'm Rhiannon Giddens host of Ariacode
SPEAKER_04: and I'm here to spread the gospel of opera. We are all gathered to experience the magic of great
SPEAKER_00: human voices of beautiful staging and big human drama. We're bringing together singers experts
SPEAKER_04: and unexpected guests to reveal the complexities of opera and life one aria at a time. Don't miss the new season of Ariacode. Listen wherever you get podcasts. The second idea has to do actually
SPEAKER_10: more with image and space really. So Bob often closes his eyes when he's talking it just helps
SPEAKER_10: him focus. So I asked him if he could try playing back two pieces of music right now and I asked him when you hear these two symphonies in your head what are you seeing? I can picture two
SPEAKER_08: symphony orchestras sitting side by side. He actually sees the literal orchestras in his head?
SPEAKER_11: Yeah and I see them as silhouettes there's no conductor in front of either one there's a
SPEAKER_08: brownish hue out in front of them like it's the floor that's more the color of the deep brown of a violin and in back of them there's a semi circle that's bluish in color. Then when I listen to them I'm going to listen to Brahms second symphony over in the left side and over in the right side I'll turn on the Emperor Concerto third movement Beethoven so I'm listening to that now these aren't two different keys Emperor's in E flat Brahms is in D so now if I want to pay particular attention oh let's say I want to listen to the Emperor here I'm gonna go into the E major I just sped it up yeah I can I can speed the thing up to go to some other part in it I can jump backwards let's see just a minute I can hear it in F I can put it into any key I want to but I'm gonna roar forward in this third movement of the Emperor here and I'm listening to the E major variation on the piano which is just like a it's just rocking and there's a beautiful E major chord pivoting around to the E flat note and going up and down from there on the piano. Wow wow so his crazy talents
SPEAKER_11: may have something to do with this movie making thing that he does in his head yeah but it's not
SPEAKER_10: just a movie it's like a 3d movie he can use it to find out where a specific instrument is how do you mean in his mind's eye he can fly out over these orchestras and actually look down on the individual instrument he wants to see when I'm looking down and I see the piano out in front of
SPEAKER_08: them he can zoom in and see them playing their instrument okay now I'm up there in the air
SPEAKER_08: listening to this thing and over over on my left side I can still hear this Brahms going along and Brahms I can only see the silhouettes from the front whereas the guy the Emperor over here I can see full color and every person's face in it plus here the lines that they're playing and as
SPEAKER_10: he's flying out over these orchestras the instruments actually get louder and softer depending on where he is like if he goes behind orchestra number one I can hear them the bass much
SPEAKER_08: louder and let's see yeah then if I go over to the left side I'm hearing the violins and he says he
SPEAKER_10: can float right above the players and actually see what they're doing I can see every wrinkle
SPEAKER_08: in the in the pleated shirts of their tuxedos and I can see the deep brownish orange ish color of the violas and I can hear the deep sound beautiful sound of that low viola and I can hear every little red rosin scratch across their bows God listening to music for this guy must be like like
SPEAKER_11: an acid trip the way that he's describing it I think it is and when he listens to recorded music
SPEAKER_10: it's so much diminished from what he feels when he's imagining it huh so he doesn't listen to CDs he cannot stand listening to CDs that Wow yeah he's a real example of the extremes of the human mind so what does he do with these crazy talents I mean is he is he like a billionaire nope first
SPEAKER_11:
SPEAKER_10: of all ragtime is not exactly the most popular form of music in the United States at this point but it's what he likes to play and he plays you know 250 shows a year but a lot of them are at historical societies or churches Linda and I we've got a small motorhome it's an airport bus one of
SPEAKER_08: those little 15 passenger buses it's got a hot shower and a bathroom and a bed of course so you
SPEAKER_10: know he travels around in his little motorhome with his wife when he can and without her when he can't and sleeps in Walmart parking lots he's working on an opera which is mostly done and he writes it in his head while he's driving and then he sits down and McDonald's and writes it out on paper and you know that's pretty much what he does with this life thanks to reporter Jess Benko for that great story and also to producer Mark Phillips for
SPEAKER_11: making it sound so good but why should we share the information where we just did why not do the outro in a way that Bob Milne would fully and completely appreciate you mean so we should say it all together and make simultaneously and you'll be able to think the Jad side and then the Roberts okay ready yeah thank you to people who play the piano or thank you to listeners of
SPEAKER_11: piano players who play the piano thank you of course to tuners of those pianos thank you to Walmart and to discount today left-hand hitting the piano thank you see that radio lab was created
SPEAKER_03: by Jad Aboumrad and is edited by Soren Wheeler Lulu Miller and Bhartif Nasser are our co-hosts Dylan Keefe is our director of sound design our staff includes Simon Adler Jeremy Bloom Becca Bresler a Kety Foster Keys W Harry Fortuna David Gable Maria Paz Gutierrez Sindhu Nyana Sambadam Matt Kielty Annie McEwen Alex Neeson Alyssa John Perry Sara Khare Sarah Sambak Arian Whack Pat Walters and Molly Webster with help from Timmy Broderick our fact checkers are Diane Kelly Emily Krieger and Natalie Middleton hi I'm Luis Vera and I'm calling from Mexico City leadership
SPEAKER_05: support for radio lab science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation Science Sandbox the Simon Foundation initiative and the John Temple foundation foundational support for radio lab was provided by the Alfred P Sloan Foundation
