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SPEAKER_07: This week on The New Yorker Radio Hour, the novelist Jennifer Egan on how we could end the enormous problem of homelessness if we had the will to do it. That's The New Yorker Radio Hour. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.
SPEAKER_06: Hey, this is Radiolab. I'm Latif Nasr. I'm Lulu Miller. And we find ourselves, as sometimes we do, in a moment where we're thinking back to an old episode we did because the topic we covered is sparking all over the news right now.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah. And that topic is the quote unquote abortion pills. And on April 7th, 2023, which for us is also known as last Friday, a federal judge in Texas ruled that the FDA's approval of one of those drugs, Mifepristone, was invalid. According to him, it should have never been approved. And later that day, an hour or so later, in
SPEAKER_06: an entirely separate case in Washington state, a federal judge ruled seemingly the opposite, that the FDA must continue to make Mifepristone available in certain states, that same drug. And then on top of that, there have been multiple motions to appeal that first Texas ruling we talked about. Very chaotic, a lot going on. For the time
SPEAKER_03: being, Mifepristone is still available, but this all means that these cases will likely work their way up the federal court system. And we will eventually see rulings that could have real staying power and real consequences. And so given that there is suddenly so much
SPEAKER_06: attention on this pill, we wanted to share with you a story we did back in the fall of 2022, last fall, about these very pills. And actually in particular, because this Texas judge in his ruling made an explicit argument about the safety of this drug and the approval process. And actually that's exactly what we cover in this episode. Yeah, you can think of it sort of as a profile of these pills. These pills are sort of characters
SPEAKER_03: and we really go into the science of them, their origin story, how they interact with the human body and what their real risks are or aren't. It came to us originally from our senior correspondent, Molly Webster and contributing editor and ER doctor, Avir Mitra. So we'll start it off with them. I don't know. I was just going to say Avir,
SPEAKER_15: you start. Okay. Avir's going to tell you a story. Yeah. I'm loving Avir's story.
SPEAKER_03: All right, cool. And we should say before we get rolling, this story talks about abortion and has some kind of graphic descriptions. So if you don't want to hear that today, this is a good one to skip. Right. So I guess this one started because
SPEAKER_04: for, okay, for me growing up, my mom, she's a OB guy and I just remember her telling me about stories of her performing abortions back in her day. This would have been like the late seventies. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I'm just picturing
SPEAKER_06: like Muppet baby Avir. Like even before you were a doctor, your mom would tell you doctor
SPEAKER_04: stories. Yeah. I just grew up around so many medical stories, both my parents are doctors that we talk about things at the dinner table that a normal family would be horrified. They would be actively vomiting and I'm just like, oh yeah, pass, you know, pass the salt please. So basically, you know, when she would talk to me about these procedures, they were pretty invasive. Like it was not a small deal if that makes sense. Right. And even now in a hospital or clinic, it's pretty safe, but it's still something we take seriously. I mean, it's safe because we take it seriously. So for the last couple months, ever since the Supreme Court decision about abortion, I've been thinking about like, what is this going to mean for us in the emergency department now that we're living in this post-Roe world? Because you know, like regardless of what you think about abortion, if people aren't able to get them, I'm anticipating a lot more patients showing up in the ER with like complications or people who've attempted to do their own abortions and hurt themselves in the process. So basically, you know, now at my job, you know, I have to occasionally organize conferences to teach ER residents things. And so I ended up hosting this OB doctor named Laura McIsaac, where I work, who for many years has been running the division in my hospital that deals with the abortions that we do. Now, what I
SPEAKER_04: was anticipating was sort of like this high drama, ER type of lecture of like, all right, when a patient comes in with a coat hanger abortion, these are the things you got to think about. It's going to be sepsis. Here's how you evacuate or, you know, uncontrolled bleeding where you, you know, what type of blood are you going to do? How are you going to match the blood? This is what I was in my mind picturing the lecture would be about. But it actually wasn't like that at all. What she sort of talked about ended up kind of
SPEAKER_04: blowing my mind in a completely different way. So I emailed Molly and I was like, let's
SPEAKER_04: just go talk to her. I'm so glad that it was more interesting than you expected.
SPEAKER_04: Basically she told us while we've all been arguing about the politics, the legality and the morality of abortion, the actual practice of it has been really on its own trajectory.
SPEAKER_05: Since I've been doing this work, it's changed probably more than any other thing I can think of.
SPEAKER_04: For the majority of abortions happening today, we're not talking about surgeries.
SPEAKER_05: No, it's with the medications to induce abortion, pills.
SPEAKER_04: And while I knew that you can take pills to induce an abortion, I hadn't really thought about like how much this really does change everything about what it means to get an abortion and how much of that has really just happened in the past few years since COVID and in a weird way because of COVID.
SPEAKER_15: Okay, so the story starts back in the 80s. Rovioid just happened and you have greater access to abortions. And the way that we did abortions was surgically, right? So it was like the woman, you know, is put on a table, she's given anesthesia. Someone actually had to go into a woman, into the cervix and pull out the growing embryo or the growing fetus.
SPEAKER_04: And that's just sort of the way it was until two things start happening on opposite sides of the world. The first one is in Brazil. So in Brazil, abortion was illegal and Brazilian women, you know, when they would have an unwanted pregnancy, right, they would go into a pharmacy and they saw on these ulcer drugs that there was like a little sign that says like, don't take this in pregnancy. So they started taking it. And surprisingly, it worked. It would cause an abortion.
SPEAKER_03: And how does that work? How does it do that?
SPEAKER_04: Well, so that drug, it's called misoprostol. Misoprostol is a prostaglandin and prostaglandin is something that we make in our body and it does a bunch of different things all over the body. One of them is healing ulcers, but another one in the uterus, it causes it to basically contract. That's it. And so if you're pregnant, you know, that can just basically make the uterus flush the embryo out.
SPEAKER_03: So it just basically physically ejects it.
SPEAKER_15: And so it induced abortions, but no one really knew like how much to take and stuff. And it was like, do I take it in my mouth? Should I shove it up my vagina and like get it near my cervix or my uterus? No one knows. So really what they were seeing is that sometimes it didn't work.
SPEAKER_04: Right. So that's misoprostol, which works some of the time.
SPEAKER_15: Right. So meanwhile, while all this is happening in France, you have a doctor, Étienne-Emile Bouillou, and his whole idea was like, well, in the early stages of pregnancy and throughout pregnancy, we really need progesterone. Right. Because progesterone helps the uterus build up a thick layer of like bloody tissue
SPEAKER_04: that can support a possible pregnancy. And the embryo, you know, needs to implant into that tissue.
SPEAKER_15: And so he was like, well, if we know that the body has to amp up progesterone in order to facilitate a pregnancy, what if I did something that like interrupted that? And so he and his research team develop this drug called RU-486, otherwise known as Mifepristone.
SPEAKER_04: So Mifepristone is basically a progesterone blocker. And so when you take Mifepristone, that layer can't grow. And essentially that signals the body to shed that layer. Then essentially you're just saying like, you just say, nope. No place for you to implant here. Move along. So that's Mifepristone.
SPEAKER_15: There's one problem though, which is that Mifepristone will cause the uterus to be an unfriendly place for the embryo, but it won't then actually expel that embryo. And so you need to combine something with Mifepristone to make it flush out the uterus. So then the doctors in France are like, wait a second, we're hearing about this ulcer drug in Brazil that's kind of doing what we need. And so what if we take that and combine the two? Because then the mesoprostol would get your uterus to like force out the stuff that has dropped off the edges of your uterus. Oh, that's very vivid and clear. Okay. Yeah.
SPEAKER_15: Yeah. So then when they combine these two, what they see is like a 95% success rate and it's very safe. Et voila, they created the abortion pill. Okay. So in 2000, the Miffy-Miso pill combo comes to the market in the United States. Oh wow. So that's like, that's years later.
SPEAKER_06: Yeah. So basically like there was like scientific testing we had to do in the States, but then
SPEAKER_15: there was also all this politics because it is like an abortion drug, but eventually they get approved. Though even then there were still all these hoops that doctors were jumping through to get it to patients. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04: Like what? Like for example, doctors would run all of these tests. You had to check a blood count. This is Laura McIsaac again. So you have to draw blood. To make sure, is this person venemic? We used to do a blood type. Check their liver function.
SPEAKER_05: Do an ultrasound and make sure that it was not an ectopic pregnancy.
SPEAKER_04: Every once in a while, a pregnancy will implant somewhere outside of the uterus. Fits in a fallopian tube that as it grows, it will rupture the mom's fallopian tube.
SPEAKER_06: And these pills do work for that or don't work for that?
SPEAKER_04: No, it wouldn't work for that. It would not. Yeah. No, because you know, you are flushing out the uterus, but if the, if the embryo is not in the uterus, it's just going to keep growing. And so that's like a super dangerous situation that, you know, that this situation can happen in any pregnancy, but it can also happen, you know, in this type of scenario. And I should say that, you know, you didn't have to do all these tests. Doctors sort of just did them out of precaution, but there were some things that doctors had to do. Like the FDA rule was that they actually had to give the patient the pills in the office, like sit there and watch the patients take the pills.
SPEAKER_06: Like literally watch them ingest the pills in their mouth. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_15: Is this all in one visit or are we at multiple visits at this point to get all of that done?
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it initially could take two visits. Wait, so why all the regulations and the testing?
SPEAKER_06: Was it because of politics or because of science safety stuff? Well, there was a little bit, some of it was politics, but then you also have to remember,
SPEAKER_15: like the day before these pills came out, the abortion was a surgery. You know, we can't forget that reproductive events, abortion, miscarriage, childbirth
SPEAKER_05: can be fatal, right?
SPEAKER_15: I mean, Laura was like, don't get me wrong. Most of the time these things go fine. Totally.
SPEAKER_05: But when it doesn't, it is scary and you have to act fast and the light bulbs have to go on and say, something's not right here. Why does she have a fever? She might be septic. I'm not going to leave her side till I figure this out. So it's not like bad shit never happens.
SPEAKER_15: And honestly, even when everything's going right, there's like you're heavy bleeding, there's uterine contractions, there could be vomiting or diarrhea. It's a full body experience that can feel and be scary, even if it ends up being okay. And for folks where it's not okay, like they'd have to get themselves to a hospital or a doctor or even get a surgical abortion to like complete the procedure. So I did find myself when I was talking to Laura, like saying, you know, as the person
SPEAKER_15: who could bleed from these pills, like I appreciate the guard rails because I have just a lot, I'm a person that has a lot of questions all the time. It's why I'm in the job that I'm in. If I could just have a little doctor living in the corner of my house, I would be the happiest person ever. How little do they have to be? I would just be like... A year's applying for the job, basically. I know. I was like, there's an opening. So I would be the happiest person, you know, so I understand like knowledge satiation. Totally, totally. The one thing with all these guard rails though, is that guard rails do make it hard to get these pills to patients, right? You're missing work for all of these visits. You know, all these tests are expensive. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah. So this is sort of like advance the story, right? This is the state of play in 2000. And the Miffy-Miso abortion is approved for up to seven weeks. Okay. Now, over time, like the next couple of decades, doctors are starting to, and these are OBs specifically, right? They're starting to experiment and test the boundaries of clinical practice. So...
SPEAKER_03: Someone tries an experiment, meaning a scientist? Yeah, like a researcher doing a clinical trial.
SPEAKER_04: So the initial dose of Miffy-Miso was 600, I think, milligrams. They try... Well, maybe we could... This is pretty high. Let's try 400. Same efficacy. Then they cut it down to 200. Same efficacy. So the dose is going down. The weeks are going out because remember, at first you could only give the pills up to seven weeks. And that's not that much time considering, you know, it's typically going to be four weeks by the time you realize you missed a period. And then you have to get all your shit together, get these labs done, come back, get the ultrasound. You know, it doesn't buy us that much time. So it started at seven, then they tried eight. Still works. Tried nine. Still works. Ten. Still works. Meanwhile, the labs that are being drawn, doctors are starting to think, well, do we really need this lab? The type and screen where we check the mother's blood type, do we really need that? And they're experimenting with taking that out. Nothing bad is happening. The CBC, you're looking for anemia. Well, turns out you can just ask someone if they have anemia. They take the CBC out.
SPEAKER_15: And I just want to say, a lot of this experimentation started in other countries. So it'd be like, oh, the UK is doing it this way now. That's interesting. And then, you know, Sweden would do something and then France would try something. So basically what you see with these pills is just this kind of steady step of progress in the science around them and the ways that we give them to people.
SPEAKER_04: And then COVID happens. And almost overnight, everything about the way we use these pills changes in a huge way.
SPEAKER_03: When we come back, the abortion pills and the pandemic face off. Stick with us. Lulu here. I'm doing improvement in the name of the Immortal Humanities here. social presence. We'reslow 140 1's live stream today. We've been fiber spin off this screen and I can brigand see how the tide has buffered our limits. and support the show, go to radio lab dot org slash join. Radio Lab is supported by Capital One with no fees or minimums. Banking with Capital One is the easiest decision in the history of decisions. Even easier than deciding to listen to another episode of your favorite podcast. And with no overdraft fees, is it even a decision? That's banking reimagined. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See Capital One dot com slash bank Capital One and a member FDIC.
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SPEAKER_13: After her emails became shorthand in 2016 for the media's deep focus on Hillary Clinton's server hygiene at the expense of policy issues, is history repeating itself? You can almost see an equation again.
SPEAKER_00: I would say led by the Times in Biden being old with Donald Trump being under dozens of felony indictments. Listen to On the Media from WNYC.
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SPEAKER_06: Lulu. Latif. Avere.
SPEAKER_04: Molly. Radiolab. OK, so now it's the beginning of 2020 and these pills are around. They're becoming more and more common. Yeah.
SPEAKER_15: So nearly half of abortions in the United States are happening because of these pills.
SPEAKER_04: And then COVID happens. Everything changes. Women still need to have abortions. And the ACLU leads a lawsuit against the FDA basically saying that forcing patients to come into the office to get these pills poses a huge medical risk to both the doctor and the patient. Now because of COVID. Because of COVID. Right. And they win. So now patients don't have to come into the office to get these pills. Yeah. And on top of that doctors did away with ultrasounds and testing for all but the most high risk patients.
SPEAKER_15: So now all of a sudden the majority of abortions are happening over video chat.
SPEAKER_04: They're essentially becoming like quote no touch. No touch abortion. That's Laura McIsaac again. Was that like for people who are doing this.
SPEAKER_02: Was that a huge moment? Huge.
SPEAKER_04: When telehealth abortions first started. I remember my first feeling was oh some bad things are going to happen.
SPEAKER_05: We're going to miss some ectopic pregnancies or patients are going to estimate their gestational age poorly. I'm just used to doing it with the patient in front of me. In medicine you know it's like we're super conservative.
SPEAKER_04: We don't want to rock the boat. We one mistake makes us all feel terrible. Yeah. Even if 99 of the rest of the time it went fine. But it turns out telehealth abortion and in-person abortion have the same outcomes.
SPEAKER_05: There's absolutely no difference.
SPEAKER_04: Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_03: Really? Nothing? Nothing? Nothing. So the efficacy rate is the same right.
SPEAKER_04: The failure rate is the same. The adverse event rate is the same. That's wild. So it's like the worries may have been legit but the worries were in vain.
SPEAKER_03: Yes. Yes. Wow. I'm kind of shocked.
SPEAKER_06: Like I feel like especially when COVID first hit like there are all these stories of like like it's like people doing Zoom funerals and Zoom weddings and those are all and then but like nobody was talking about Zoom abortion. Yeah. Going on at the same time.
SPEAKER_04: Exactly. And I mean, Laura's take on it is that like all of this happened precisely because, you know, there was so much else going on and neither the pro-abortion movement or the anti-abortion movement even got the chance. They were too distracted by COVID to be fighting these.
SPEAKER_04: Fighting over how doctors should be doing these abortions. Huh. Wow. Yeah. But there's actually one more thing that Laura told us. Something that almost feels like a signal of what abortions might look like in the future. So this nonprofit called Aid Access has been providing women with Mifepristone and Mesoprostol through the mail.
SPEAKER_05: And Aid Access is the U.S. branch of this abortion provider that is literally mailing abortion pills all around the world.
SPEAKER_15: Huh. And it's run by this European doctor who has developed a company to practice essentially in other countries where access to abortion is really limited. What you do is you go online, you fill out a questionnaire and then a doctor on the other end would read it. And if they felt like you qualified to have a medical abortion, they would mail you the pills directly to your house.
SPEAKER_14: In the first two years of the service, there were 57,506 requests from people in the United States and they came from all 50 states.
SPEAKER_04: This is Abigail Aiken, professor at the University of Texas, Austin.
SPEAKER_15: Abigail and her team looked at data from almost 3,000 of those patients. And we found that 96% of people were able to end their pregnancy without any intervention from a medical provider.
SPEAKER_14: How does that compare to the same statistics for if this is done in a clinic setting?
SPEAKER_14: Yeah, that's a great question. So these results in terms of effectiveness are really on par with what you would see in the clinical setting. Really? Yeah. Again, same results.
SPEAKER_15: No greater adverse events, even when a doctor and a patient weren't speaking to each other at all. And can I just say also that there was this other result that was very interesting.
SPEAKER_14: There were actually several ectopics, not many, a handful, maybe five in one study, three in the other, that were diagnosed by the service at the time of consultation. So the person would share symptoms of some kind and they would say, we think that's probably an ectopic, you should go get that checked out before you proceed with this. And they would actually get into care earlier than if they had waited until they had severe abdominal pain and vomiting. So you mean it's like the form that they did sort of flagged them?
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_14: Wow.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah. So it's a crazy study. This is the idea that had been percolating and aid access is definitely the vanguard, but it's this idea of the self-managed abortion. And I think of it like Molly's probably tired of me hearing saying the same metaphor. Never. Never. But Jenga, I just played it the other day. Okay. I see this whole thing like a game of Jenga, right? How? When the medicines come out, we have a perfect block of Jenga, you know, like the whole structures there. And as physicians, we're very scared to take things out of this structure. But we start saying, well, you know, really, I don't know if we need this particular lab, hepatic function, whatever. Let's take that out. Structure still stands, you know? Boom, boom. We keep taking out different parts of this Jenga tower. With COVID, huge chunks of the Jenga tower come out. Structure still standing. And so what's incredible is just the amount of pieces we've been able to take out of this Jenga tower and have it still stand. And really what's the last piece that is always there is the doctor. You know, we put ourselves at the center of this whole process. Partially out of care, but partially probably out of some hubris, I would say, you know? And so taken to its fullest, the self-managed abortion is really saying, what if there's no face-to-face contact with the doctor at all? What if you fill out a form and if you check the right boxes on this form, then you're just good to go. You do this completely on your own. And so that idea, I think, is subtle. But from my perspective, it's profound. There is no doctor directly involved in your care. You know, it's like getting a like a IKEA couch, you know, it's just like, here's the instructions. So what so so like, what does this mean?
SPEAKER_04: You know, that's what that's what I keep asking myself is like, so what? And right now, 90% of abortions are happening in the first trimester where you could potentially use these pills. And so the so what to me is that like, what these pills are telling us is that we now have the ability to take abortions, a good chunk of them, outside of clinics, outside of hospitals, outside of institutions, and put them into the hands of people, which I think is just such a cool and interesting trajectory. That said, you know, one thing I think important to note is that we're talking about abortions with pills, but there are a chunk of people for whom that doesn't apply at all. You know, they need to get the old school, you know, surgical abortion, and that's fine. But the percentage of people getting an abortion using pills, it's literally just a line graph that just keeps going up every year. And it's really just happening because of the science of these pills. Can I just say it's like so funny to hear you both tell this story, because it's like we're so used to every story about abortion.
SPEAKER_06: It's all about the politics. It's like so politically drenched. It's like every single little detail about it is like a culture war. But what you're telling is like the story that seems like there's no politics in it really, or very little. Which is kind of surprising to me. It's like making me do a double take kind of. That's what I think is so incredible is like science moves based on science, more or less.
SPEAKER_04: I mean, you know, obviously there's politics involved, but in this case, I'm seeing that these pills keep moving and moving and moving in the same direction. It's bigger than politics. It's bigger than the Supreme Court. It's bigger than all of that.
SPEAKER_03: Contributing editor of Vir Mitra and senior correspondent Molly Webster.
SPEAKER_06: So that was the piece we played just a few months ago. At the time, it seemed to us at least like it really, really was mostly a science and medicine story. But obviously, now the law and the politicians have caught up. And now this pill is sort of in the crosshairs. But we should say for the moment, this pill Mifepristone is still available at pharmacies and it doesn't seem to be affecting the work of Aid Access, the group we mentioned that sends patients abortion pills through the mail.
SPEAKER_03: So thanks for listening.
SPEAKER_06: Stay tuned.
SPEAKER_12: Radio Lab was created by Jad Abumrad and is edited by Soren Wheeler. Lulu Miller and Laptif Nasser are our co-hosts. Suzy Lechtenberg is our executive producer. Dylan Keefe is our director of sound design. Our staff includes Simon Adler, Jeremy Blum, Becca Bressler, Richard Cusick, Akedi Foster-Keys, W. Harry Fortuna, David Gable, Maria Pascu-Díaz, Sindhu Nyanasambandam, Matt Kielce, Annie McEwen, Alex Neeson, Sara Khari, Ana Rasquette Paz, Sarah Sandback, Ariane Wack, Pat Walters, and Molly Webster, with help from Andrew Vinales. Our fact checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Krieger, and Natalie Middleton. Hi, this is Tamara from Pasadena, California. Leadership support for Radio Lab science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox Assignments Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radio Lab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.
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