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SPEAKER_09: Crack cocaine plagued the United States for more than a decade. This week on Notes from America, author Donovan Ramsey explains how the myths of crack prolonged a disastrous era and shaped millions of lives. And now wherever you get your podcasts.
SPEAKER_15: How did you even get onto... I feel like buttons has just become a fixture. How did this happen? Okay, well can I... let me start.
SPEAKER_14: This is reporter Latif Nasser and today on Radiolab, Latif and I are bringing Jed and you three wildly different stories about buttons that are really about power and freedom and destruction.
SPEAKER_03: So this all started because I could not convince any of my friends to go to the elevator history museum with me. There was not a single person out of the eight and a half million people living in New York who wanted to go to the button museum with me. But you found one. Except Robert Coleridge. I'll go to anything. Exactly. Jamie told me never to stop recording. We go to Long Island City.
SPEAKER_14: You think it's that door right there? Personally, we can't find it. We got lost. This street is entirely taxi yellow. The only thing we saw was a big old boring building covered with taxi signs. We have no interest in taxis. Do you know if there's a museum in here? We found somebody on the street. Yes there is. You gotta go up the stairs.
SPEAKER_09: Right? Yeah. Actually, I'll take you there. I'll take you. I'll show you the way anyway. All right. You go all the way down, make a left, right, and then go all the way down to the end.
SPEAKER_03: Thank you very much. You're welcome. Aha, wow, that's quite a sign.
SPEAKER_14: Elevator museum founded 2011 by Patrick Carson. So we open up the door. We have no idea what's going to be on the other side of this. Not a thing. Hello? This is different from what you like. And? It's a large room. It's a world. Completely you building up to something, I hope. It's filled with stuff.
SPEAKER_03: What is it? Elevator matchbook here. Pens or switches and locks. Just random stuff. These are things you give at sales meetings.
SPEAKER_14: The Rosenberg lubricant. Small brass objects of one kind or another. And there are these giant paintings of escalators and moving sidewalks.
SPEAKER_03: And sitting in the corner. Hi, I'm Lethe. Across the room, we see a guy sitting. He's an older guy. Patrick Carr. He has his glasses down on his nose and he's in charge of the place.
SPEAKER_01: They can call me if they want to come visit 718.
SPEAKER_03: Apparently you're supposed to make an appointment.
SPEAKER_01: And if I'm in the mood, they'll get a song.
SPEAKER_03: Patrick has been the lead singer in a number of bands and he even studied constitutional
SPEAKER_14: law. This is a man for all seasons. He's got so much elevator stuff. I've been collecting since I was 11 years old. Because when you were 7 years old, you walked into an elevator and had a meltdown. When I was 11 years old, I started working with my dad.
SPEAKER_01: I went to college, got a couple degrees and stayed in the elevator business. Never left. Actually, my first item is over on one of the walls here. Let me show you something. I'll bring you over here.
SPEAKER_14: And as we're walking along, Oh, this is like a hall of buttons. We come inevitably to a series of elevator button panels. Here's a golden up and down. Here's a bronze up and down. That's really classy. There's a silver up and down.
SPEAKER_03: He has all kinds of antique buttons that I mean from just different eras. Here's one where you go spoop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop.
SPEAKER_15: So this is the genesis right there. Right there is where the insult begins.
SPEAKER_14: And it is an insult because what is about to happen is he's about to tell us that we are fools and have no power in the world in which he inhabits. And he does that by pointing to the closed door button where you push and the door's supposed to close. He says, just says, matter of fact, he says, about 80% of them are nonfunctional.
SPEAKER_02: Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_14: What? Because they are broken and no one fixed them because they were clean. Because they were never wired up. They were never wired up. Never.
SPEAKER_01: Most of the time we don't do it. About 80% of them don't work. I just assume they don't work.
SPEAKER_15: You assume they don't work.
SPEAKER_03: I assume they don't work. All the time? Yeah.
SPEAKER_14: I thought, no, no, no, no. They don't work.
SPEAKER_15: No, this cannot be right. What? What do you mean it cannot be right? Have you ever pushed a close button that has had any effect on the door? Yes.
SPEAKER_14: It's just a psychological tool for you. You need the button to go bang, bang, bang, bang. But that's not, but he said also, he had also a very fancy reason. What was his fancy reason?
SPEAKER_15: They are extremely intelligent elevators.
SPEAKER_01: The elevators actually remember what happens every day. So the elevator system knows that between 855 and 9 o'clock we get 373 people on an average morning coming in. So we're going to return two cars to the main floor as soon as we possibly can. We're not going to park anything upstairs. But it knows that at 445 it gets 650 people leaving the building. You get three wheelchairs, you get two old people, da da da.
SPEAKER_14: And so we program the timing of the elevator to accommodate the whole. So all you're doing is screwing up our timing by touching that thing.
SPEAKER_01: I mean you have thousands and thousands of people anxiously trying to urge the machine
SPEAKER_14: to do their will. We like watching people just keep pressing a stupid button and not knowing.
SPEAKER_14: This is cruel, I have to tell you. His idea that we would somehow have the authority or the power to close the door was offensive to him.
SPEAKER_13: Yeah. Now in my building they work. I'm sympathetic to that viewpoint. But you'll be sympathetic.
SPEAKER_15: You are a customer. Because it's a, think of what a building is. It's a crazy ass vertical stack of humanity. How is that going to work if not for beautifully designed systems like the elevator? This is about freedom. This is about freedom.
SPEAKER_14: And this is about empowerment. You're insane. You're insane. So we then began looking around for some little soupçon of hope to give the Radiolab visitors.
SPEAKER_14: Some tiny bit of power that they could have back in this otherly fascistic system. And you know, we found it.
SPEAKER_05: You did. We did. What did you find?
SPEAKER_14: We have hacked the close button.
SPEAKER_15: Really? Wait. Now I am suddenly, for the first time I am interested. What did you discover? The next time, Jad, that you walk into an elevator, the door closes and mysteriously,
SPEAKER_14: although you're going to the eighth floor, it stops on five. The door opens. You peer out. There's nobody there. Six endless seconds will roll by leaving you powerless and hapless. But not anymore. Now here's what you can do. And we checked this and it's true. You can put your arm through the door, breaking the beam with your arm and then yank your arm back very suddenly. That will convince the stupid, stupid supine elevator that you have just, someone has just entered the elevator and now it will close. That will shave an amazing three, four, five seconds off your waiting time. And it will give you that sense of being Superman.
SPEAKER_03: That's 45 minutes of your life back. You're welcome. We are sad to say that due to rising rents, Patrick's Elevator Museum closed its doors back in 2016. Fittingly, no buttons were pushed for those doors to close.
SPEAKER_14: So the next story, this is maybe the most valuable button in the world. It's not a button exactly. It's it's the, he was a guy and his name was Button Gwinnett.
SPEAKER_12: What is it? Button Gwinnett. B-U-T-T-O-N? Yep.
SPEAKER_03: Is that his real name?
SPEAKER_14: That's Bobby Livingston from R&R Auction House in Boston. Who is Button Gwinnett?
SPEAKER_12: Button Gwinnett is one of two signers of the Declaration of Independence that were born in England and moved to the United States, or moved to the colonies. He is a founding father. He's a founding father.
SPEAKER_03: You've seen his signature thousands of times without realizing it.
SPEAKER_14: And the thing about that signature gets interesting in a minute.
SPEAKER_03: But just to start at the beginning, Button Gwinnett was born in England in the early 1700s and then he moved to Georgia in 1765.
SPEAKER_12: And he bought an island and I believe he began a import- He bought an island? Yep, St. Catherine's Island. The truth is he leased it, but whatever. So he's like just a wealthy guy? No, Button Gwinnett was a serial debtor actually. And he owed everybody, he owed everybody money. So he failed in his business and he became a radicalized revolutionary. And he joined Georgia politics late in the 1760s.
SPEAKER_14: And when it got to be 1776 in Philadelphia, he was in Independence Hall and he signed the Declaration of Independence. Really?
SPEAKER_12: To the left and below of John Hancock. But then he goes home to Georgia and gets in a duel with his political rival and is killed in 1777. And then I believe in 1780, his wife passes away leaving only his daughter. And then by 1800, his daughter passes away and his lineage has disappeared. So the Gwinnettes pass into history?
SPEAKER_12: Yes. Yes. And then in 1780, the British burned Savannah to the ground. So any government documents that would have existed in the state archives are destroyed.
SPEAKER_15: But his signature is on that very important piece of paper. True.
SPEAKER_12: Which becomes important because around the 1820s, the last of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were dying. So there was a nostalgia for the founding fathers. And that's when people began collecting the signatures that were placed on that document. So people collected Jefferson and an Adams and a Hancock and they started thinking, okay,
SPEAKER_12: I want a whole set of the 56 men that signed that document.
SPEAKER_03: People want the set.
SPEAKER_12: They want the set. For an American, I don't think there was any more important signature than the signatures that were placed on that document. Get them all. And a problem arose. Button Gwinnett signatures were almost impossible to find.
SPEAKER_14: And even now, like a hundred and some odd years later.
SPEAKER_12: One guy, I went to see his collection and he had a beautiful house in Florida overlooking the bay. I won't tell you which bay, but he showed me some great stuff. And I said, what else you got? And he goes, I swear, he pushes a button on a wall begins to rise. On the wall, he's got like, you know, incredible, you know, Wilbur Wright, George Washington. But I could see in the middle of my eye goes right to it. The unmistakable signature of Button Gwinnett is like the centerpiece of this secret wall that raises up. And I go, my goodness, you've got a Button Gwinnett. It was pretty amazing. I mean, so this was the autographic equivalent of some really famous diamond, you know, or
SPEAKER_14: something like that. That's right.
SPEAKER_15: You know, it's the Holy grail. Wait, how many signatures still exist? There are 50, 51 known examples in the world.
SPEAKER_12: Most of the things that exist are IOUs.
SPEAKER_15: If you have one of these things, what's what are they worth?
SPEAKER_03: Well, I'll tell you this. It is more valuable than Lincoln.
SPEAKER_12: Much more. A hundred times more than Abe Lincoln. What?
SPEAKER_14: Really? What about George Washington? Yep. Ben Franklin? Yes. Yes. But Gwinnett outsells Ben Franklin was like a world famous person. But Ben Franklin was a man of letters.
SPEAKER_12: He wrote tons of letters. He was president of Pennsylvania. He was the ambassador to France. He wrote and wrote and wrote and signed and signed and signed. So there's Bobby Livingston told us with the with the exception possible exception of William
SPEAKER_03: Shakespeare. This guy, Button Gwinnett, ran up a bunch of debt, did basically nothing else with his life. He is the most valuable signature in the world today.
SPEAKER_12: What makes it extremely hard to complete a set of signers, the Declaration of Independence is because of the 51, 41 are in libraries or institutions and would never be able to get it. So there's only 10 examples in public hands. Hello, sir.
SPEAKER_03: Hello, sir. How are you doing? Good. Okay, you checked your your bags and everything. So it turns out that there are four Button Gwinnettes at the at the New York Public Library. Which is right in our neighborhood. Closed. I believe the reading room is still closed. But we're going to a kind of super secret place where you need to ring a bell to get in. Really? So I so I emailed them up. I emailed a guy named Thomas Lannon.
SPEAKER_11: And I work in the manuscripts and archives division at the New York Public Library.
SPEAKER_03: He took us into a special room on the top on the top floor. Ooh, wow. This is awesome. All by ourselves. Yeah, we'll just I guess we'll put them on the wood.
SPEAKER_11: We're standing at a wooden like a kind of beautiful wooden table.
SPEAKER_03: And we have on the table for Button Gwinnett's for
SPEAKER_15: Wait, hold on just just so I can appreciate Tell me what one of these is worth.
SPEAKER_03: You don't know until they're sold because they're different quality. But the last one that we know of that was sold here in New York was sold for $722,500.
SPEAKER_11: I don't I'm not in the business of estimating value of things. But I can say that Button Gwinnett autographs at the New York Public Library are classified as splendid. highest ranking splendid. They're not they're not simply cut autographs. They're documents signed. Look at this. Look at this. This is the most extravagant one. Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_03: But it has like seals on it like red wax seals. There might have been like $4 million sitting on that table.
SPEAKER_14: We got $4 million.
SPEAKER_03: So for me, the impulse the impulse I'm having right here is not just putting these in my pocket and running away like the impulse I'm having and I'm being totally frank here is that is the same impulse I have like you know, when you want to pull the fire alarm like I just want to just tear these all up right now. Kind of. I just wanted to take all of these papers that were on this table and just tear them all to shreds. I guess I can't speak to your desire to to to destroy history.
SPEAKER_11: And then the guy really looked a lot. But you really you don't really want to tear these up. You have to admit it's just so bad.
SPEAKER_02: Like it's so arbitrarily valuable. Like like like I could just I could just rip it up. Like how could it be that valuable if I could just rip it up?
SPEAKER_01: But it is.
SPEAKER_14: OK so taking a cue from lot of when we come back, we're going to take a decidedly anti button turn. We'll be right back.
SPEAKER_08: Lulu here. If you ever heard the classic Radiolab episode, Sometimes Behave So Strangely, you know that speech can suddenly leap into music and really how strange and magic sound itself can be. We at Radiolab take sound seriously and use it to make our journalism as impactful as it can be. And we need your help to keep doing it. The best way to support us is to join our membership program, The Lab. This month, all new members will get a T-shirt that says Sometimes Behave So Strangely. To check out the T-shirt and support the show, go to radiolab.org slash join. Radiolab is supported by Capital One. With no fees or minimums, banking with Capital One is the easiest decision in the history of decisions. Even easier than deciding to listen to another episode of your favorite podcast. And with no overdraft fees, is it even a decision? That's banking reimagined. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. Go to capitalone.com slash bank, Capital One N-A member FDIC. Radiolab is supported by Apple Card. Apple Card has a cash back rewards program unlike other credit cards. You earn unlimited daily cash on every purchase, receive it daily and can grow it at 4.15 annual percentage yield when you open a savings account. Apply for Apple Card in the wallet app on iPhone. Apple Card subject to credit approval. Savings is available to Apple Card owners subject to eligibility requirements. Savings accounts provided by Goldman Sachs Bank USA member FDIC terms apply.
SPEAKER_10: After but her emails became shorthand in 2016 for the media's deep focus on Hillary Clinton's server hygiene at the expense of policy issues, is history repeating itself?
SPEAKER_06: You can almost see an equation again, I would say led by the Times in Biden being old with Donald Trump being under dozens of felony indictments.
SPEAKER_10: Listen to On the Media from WNYC. And on the media wherever you get your podcasts.
SPEAKER_06: We have a crisis situation at one of our missile centers, sir.
SPEAKER_14: A thermonuclear button. You mean to tell me a renegade general's got his finger on the button of a Titan missile?
SPEAKER_15: Is it a button? I mean, I- Well, that's what we wanted to- It's depicted in Hollywood as a big red button. Big red button.
SPEAKER_14: Exactly. So we just figured, okay, let's go find the button that destroys the world.
SPEAKER_03: We brought in a friend of mine, Alex Wellerstein. He's a historian of all things nuclear weapon related. Yeah. He sat down and the first thing he told us was that- There's no button.
SPEAKER_13: No button? No. There has never been a single button. Wait a second.
SPEAKER_14: Like don't- when you get to like 1952, 1953, in ordinary parlance, people say, well, the president has his finger on the button. I mean, I don't know. Do you have any idea where that phrase comes from? The button?
SPEAKER_13: It's older. It's much older than the bomb. Oh. Really? And all of this stuff, H.G. Wells is sort of famous, but there's all this literature about the crazy scientist who invents a new form of gas that can like kill everybody and he has a button. And is it a red button? I don't know if they say red, but it's definitely a button.
SPEAKER_03: And according to Alex, by the time we developed nuclear weapons- This existing imagery about the scientists can blow up the world using their button transfers
SPEAKER_13: to the president can blow up the world using his button.
SPEAKER_14: And then Alex told us something that really surprised us. He said when the US government dropped those first bombs on Japan- So the bomb that they drop in Hiroshima, they didn't take off with the bomb armed.
SPEAKER_13: They took off with the bomb missing a piece. And the missing piece is- It's a chunk of uranium. And then one of the scientists who was also a military guy crawled into the back of this plane while it was in route, opened up the bomb, put the missing piece back into it, and then closed it back up again and turned on all the electrical switches that said, if we drop you out of a plane, you're going to have to detonate.
SPEAKER_14: It will explode when it's a certain number of feet off the ground, so pressure will trigger it. And as for finger on the button, the finger, which belonged to Harry Truman, president of the United States, was 11 time zones removed and frankly unaware of the act.
SPEAKER_13: Truman, he didn't issue an order himself. He sort of approved an order that was already being issued from the secretary of war to the commanders out there. And it said, you have two of these special bombs. That's what they called them, special bombs. And here are your four targets. You can drop them on. You could drop them on Hiroshima. You could drop on an Nagasaki. You can drop them on Kokura and you could drop them on Niigata.
SPEAKER_03: Basically, he says any day after August 3rd- Feel free to drop the bomb.
SPEAKER_15: What? He said, here's a couple of different options, choose? Choose.
SPEAKER_03: Here are some bombs, here are some cities, here are some days. Go for it.
SPEAKER_13: No f***ing way. Other than that, the only considerations are operational. So the bombing order says you have to be able to see the target before you drop it. And that's it. Wow.
SPEAKER_03: One of the interesting things that I found out later, there was a town called Kokura and that was the plan B town, or city rather, for Hiroshima. But the weather that day happened to be good in Hiroshima, so they dropped it there. And then the next time, that was actually the plan A city for Nagasaki, but the weather was bad there. And so then they bombed Nagasaki. But so this city of Kokura got spared twice. It was so close.
SPEAKER_13: And so Truman doesn't even know. He gets told, oh, by the way, we dropped the bomb yesterday.
SPEAKER_15: You mean when the bomb dropped in Hiroshima? He had no idea. He didn't know it would be Hiroshima?
SPEAKER_14: He did not know. He did not know it was Hiroshima.
SPEAKER_13: He didn't know what day. The second bomb, he seems to have been caught off guard. And he actually issues, this is his only way of getting involved, he issues an order which says stop dropping atomic bombs until I tell you to.
SPEAKER_15: I feel like if you're a president and you're going to do that to that many people, I feel like you should be directly responsible. It should not be an arbitrary decision. Like I kind of want a button in this case. No, no, no, no.
SPEAKER_13: You wouldn't actually want there to be a button. You could bump a button. A button is too easy. You don't want it to be easy enough that you set your coffee down on the Oval Office table and kill the world. Like obviously nobody wants to do that. Nobody wants to do that. And I think it's, you know, I have to admit when you first were pitching the button thing, I was thinking, where are they going to go with this? How is this going to work? And the more I was thinking about it, it's sort of a deep concept, right? It's about the ease in which you could actually destroy all of civilization because of the technology, which you could not do in the 19th century. You could not do with Genghis Khan. He could do a lot of damage, but he could not kill, you know, all the people in the world.
SPEAKER_13: The button is the symbol of how easy that is.
SPEAKER_14: And the reason this becomes kind of crucial is we now are moving through the fifties into the sixties.
SPEAKER_05: For the first time, the cities of the United States and the people who live in them are vulnerable.
SPEAKER_14: In the early sixties, the United States is in a face to face with Khrushchev over those Cuban missiles. Soviet military units are in a state of combat readiness. And the world gets really, really, really close to annihilation. The way that it works at this time is that the president has an assistant, a military
SPEAKER_03: guy who has all the nuclear codes in a briefcase, handcuffed.
SPEAKER_14: To the assistant and the assistant, if the president is in the bathroom, the assistant is outside the door in the corridor. If this president is at a football game at all times.
SPEAKER_03: And so weirdly, the, the suitcase is called the football. And I believe the page with the nuclear launch codes on it is called the biscuit. Why?
SPEAKER_13: I have no idea. I have no idea where it got the name.
SPEAKER_14: So it's the sixties and things between the US and the Soviet Union are very tense. And there are generals on the joint chiefs, Curtis LeMay among them, who are bombs away
SPEAKER_03: LeMay. Yeah.
SPEAKER_14: They who are very, who are not at all troubled by the possibility that this would be a weapon. They would use and they advocated very specifically in very specific case. So even though there are no buttons and there are all these codes, people are still worried
SPEAKER_03: at the time about just how easy it would be for the president to launch a nuclear attack. Right. So, and one guy in particular, this guy, Roger Fisher, this sort of academic policy guy,
SPEAKER_03: he's a Harvard law school professor. He advised secretaries of state on the Iran hostage crisis on the Israel Egypt peace accord. He, he definitely had the ear of the Pentagon.
SPEAKER_13: And he was troubled by this idea that, you know, the president could very dispassionately start a nuclear war. And so he proposed this idea.
SPEAKER_05: I'll jump in. The notion comes from his long interest in reducing the risk of war.
SPEAKER_03: Roger Fisher passed away, but we were able to talk to his two sons.
SPEAKER_04: I'm Elliot Fisher.
SPEAKER_05: I'm a professor at Dartmouth. And I'm Peter Fisher. I'm a senior fellow at the Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth. So his solution to this, and by the way, this would be just in the case of a, of a US
SPEAKER_14: surprise attack, what's called a first strike, was to instead of having all the codes be
SPEAKER_13: just in a suitcase, his idea was to get a volunteer who'd have the codes put under
SPEAKER_05: their heart.
SPEAKER_13: You embed the codes in some sort of capsule in the guy's heart.
SPEAKER_05: Surgically. And he'd carry around a briefcase with a knife in it. A butcher knife. And if the president ever felt the urge to fire off the missiles, he has to go to the
SPEAKER_13: guy and say, well, now's time. Give me the knife. And then he would have to take the knife and drive it into the guy's chest.
SPEAKER_13: The president has to chop out this code from this guy's heart.
SPEAKER_05: The president would have to kill someone and pull the code out of their body. He would have to first kill one person in order to get at the codes that would let him kill millions of people.
SPEAKER_13: He has to look at someone and realize what death is, Fisher writes, what an innocent death is. Blood on the White House carpet. It's reality brought home. Fisher then says that he suggested this to friends in the Pentagon and their reply was, my God, that's terrible. Having to kill someone would distort the president's judgment. He might never push the button. That's the whole point.
SPEAKER_05: Yes. The strongest objection is it might work. And even now, I think, you know, gosh, not a crazy idea at all to have the president
SPEAKER_04: be if they're going to pull the trigger and blow the world up, kill one person because you're just about to kill tens of millions. Mostly innocent people.
SPEAKER_14: And the button is just too easy. So we'll just make it harder.
SPEAKER_04: The button's too easy. Exactly.
SPEAKER_13: Yeah. Yeah. The butcher knife is the ultimate anti-button.
SPEAKER_15: But how are you going to find a guy to put the codes inside his heart?
SPEAKER_03: I would volunteer. I would volunteer to be that guy. Really? You would? Totally.
SPEAKER_14: In a second, I would volunteer to be that guy. I would volunteer to be stabbed in the heart by the president of the United States.
SPEAKER_03: And you know what I would do? I would make like I would be best friends with the president. We would take walks. We would go swimming together. It would be great. We would be best friends. I would I would that would be my mission would be to make it as hard as humanly possible for him to carve open my chest.
SPEAKER_14: Okay we have some thank yous to make here. Glad you could go ahead. All right.
SPEAKER_03: First thank you to Catherine Kilachowski of the Elevator Historical Society Museum in Long Island City, New York.
SPEAKER_14: And the Slade Elevator Company and Pride and Service Elevator Company both in New York for helping us learn things. And to our friend Steve who helped us understand what goes on among autograph collectors.
SPEAKER_03: Thank you to the very indulgent New York Public Library Archives and Manuscripts Division.
SPEAKER_14: And Alex Wellerstein has a nuclear history blog. He calls it Restricted Data. Check that out.
SPEAKER_03: Alex in turn wanted us to thank John Coster-Mullen, Michael Gordon, Eric Schlosser, and Spencer
SPEAKER_14: Weir. And special thanks to actors Michael Chernus and Noah Robbins.
SPEAKER_15: And also let's not forget Damiano Marchetti for Production Sport. And we thought we would just go out with our final salute to buttons by the one, one mechanism
SPEAKER_14: man created that hates a button.
SPEAKER_03: The music you are hearing was arranged by the composer Keith Harrison. It is a zipper rag.
SPEAKER_15: On that note, you weirdos, we should go. I'm Chad Abumrad. I'm Robert Krolwich. Go ahead Latif.
SPEAKER_03: And I'm Latif Nasr.
SPEAKER_15: Thanks for listening.
SPEAKER_00: Radiolab was created by Chad Abumrad and is edited by Soren Wheeler. Lulu Miller and Latif Nasr are our co-hosts. Madeline Keefe is our director of sound design. Our staff includes Simon Adler, Jeremy Blum, Becca Bresler, Rachel Cusick, Aketi Foster-Keys, W. Harry Fortuna, David Gable, Mariam Pascu-Tieres, Sindhu Nyanasanbandhan, Matt Cutie, Annie McEwen, Alex Neeson, Sara Khare, Ana Rasquette-Passe, Sarah Sandback, Ariane Wack, Pat Walters, and Molly Webster, with help from Andrew Vinales. Our fact checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Krieger, and Natalie Middleton.
SPEAKER_07: Hi, this is Tamara from Pasadena, California. Leadership support for Radiolab science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Special support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.
SPEAKER_08: Radiolab is supported by Capital One. With no fees or minimums, banking with Capital One is the easiest decision in the history of decisions. Even easier than deciding to listen to another episode of your favorite podcast. And with no overdraft fees, is it even a decision? That's banking reimagined. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. Visit CapitalOne.com slash bank Capital One N-A member FDIC.
