Galápagos

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Lulu and Lutef are out this week, so I'm SPEAKER_01: just going to step in to play an episode that, well, if I'm honest, it's just one that I felt like hearing and running again at this moment just because. So today, a little step back in time to one of my favorite radio producers, Tim Howard, telling us the story of a truly singular spot on the face of our earth. Here we go. Hey, I'm Chad Iboomrod. I'm Robert Krillwich. SPEAKER_21: This is Radiolab and today we begin on a plane. Thank you, Brooke. Which carried our newly married producer, Tim Howard, to the Galapagos. So I took the SPEAKER_19: plane from Quito. We had just finished the honeymoon that morning. Me and Brooke. They SPEAKER_19: make announcements and at a certain point, the flight attendants, they open up all of the overhead bins and they walk up and down spraying some sort of insecticide. For what? For like a... Invasive species, I think. Yeah, like whatever bugs might have snuck out of the plane. But at this point I'm getting super excited and I'm thinking about Darwin and I start reading Voyage of the Beagle, his book, on this nook that I had bought for the trip. But then my power supply didn't work and my nook died. That was a big problem for Darwin too. He took one out of power. His nook. Oh, God. And then the islands come into sight. SPEAKER_16: What is the color of the Pacific Ocean when you look out the plane window? SPEAKER_19: That was actually the first thing I noticed. It's this totally wild, like I've never seen this storybook, blue-green iridescent aquamarine. And I'm thinking, wow, this is going to be like dropping into another world. You know, like nature in its purest form. My version was, this is my dream of what it would be like, is you land on it and it's SPEAKER_16: sort of like low grassy knoll and an enormous turtle comes by. The one that you could sit on the top of and it wouldn't notice that you were there. Just kind of meets you at the airport. SPEAKER_19: Just wandering by. Exactly. It's very similar to what I was picturing. But we land, we take the 40-minute SPEAKER_19: bus ride to Puerto Ayora. Puerto Ayora. SPEAKER_16: Puerto Ayora. Puerto Ayora. SPEAKER_19: Which turns out to be kind of a big town. Tons of people live there. Tons like a fishing village? Tons? No, it's way bigger than a fishing village. And just let me say that my first hours in Galapagos were totally different than I was expecting. SPEAKER_17: Oh, good. It's sort of the first thing that really is just like, where the hell am I? I'm walking SPEAKER_19: through the town, it's kind of late. The sun is just starting to set. I'm actually walking SPEAKER_19: down Charles Darwin Avenue. Just kind of getting to lay the land. When all of a sudden. This line of cars comes around the corner. Honking. Endless honking. And they're waving flags. Blue flags. At first I didn't know what the hell was happening, but it turns out it was an election rally. And I was just really blown away that this continued, this procession for like 15 minutes. And I remember asking one guy, they're driving so slow I can just walk up to them. I asked the whole car, who's your candidate? And they're like, I didn't know who the guy was, but turns out he was the incumbent. And I'm like, is he going to win? And this guy, he doesn't even say anything, he just kind of points. He points at the cars in front and behind. As if like, dude, seriously? You see how many of us there are? But then at a certain point, I noticed this one guy by himself standing on the sidewalk wearing a white shirt and jeans. He's waving a flag, but his flag is a different color. It's white. And it's really loud, but I go up to him and I yell at him, who's your candidate? And he said, I am a candidate. And I'm like, what? Are you seriously? So his name is Leonidas. SPEAKER_19: He is a naturalist guide. You actually end up meeting a lot of people employed that way in Galapagos. And he tells me, politically speaking, he's an outsider. And of course, SPEAKER_19: I'm wondering why he's standing there by himself waving a flag at this entire parade of people who don't support him at all. And he tells me, well, I'm nervous. If the party in power SPEAKER_19: now, the front runners, if they get elected, then I see a dark and uncertain future. More SPEAKER_19: big hotels, more of these enormous boats, more people. And if things keep going this SPEAKER_19: way, who's going to stand up for nature? This is Radiolab and we are dedicating the SPEAKER_21: entire hour to this little set of islands and to that question. As the world is filling up with more and more and more people, is it inevitable that even the most sacred, pristine SPEAKER_16: places on the planet will eventually get swallowed up? And how far are we willing to go to return SPEAKER_21: a place to what it was before we got there? And more importantly, how far are we going to go? And more importantly, can we? Oh, I'm never a doubter. Okay, so this is Linda. SPEAKER_26: Linda Cayo, currently the science advisor for Galapagos Conservancy. I began my work in Galapagos in 1981. She first came to study tortoises. Back then, you know, Galapagos SPEAKER_26: was really isolated. Barely any cars, super limited electricity. All I remember is having SPEAKER_26: a smile on my face. All the time. Because, you know, as a biologist, going to Galapagos is like going to Mecca. She says you have islands with massive volcanoes, forests. Tree SPEAKER_26: ferns that grow, you know, well above a human's height. Yeah, I mean, powerful colors, you SPEAKER_34: know, there's green mangrove, black lava flows, and pink flamingos. This is Matthias Espinosa, a naturalist guide in the Galapagos. And like Linda, he says that when he first got SPEAKER_19: to the Galapagos in the 80s, he couldn't believe that the place was real. It was breast-taken. He visited an island called Fernandina, and the first thing that I saw was a lava flow SPEAKER_34: that was moving. And I said, what's going on? No, no, that's not lava flow. There's like 1,000 sea iguanas taking a sun bath. And he says he would go on these dives. Can SPEAKER_19: you imagine schools of hammerhead sharks, like 500, 800 passing in front of you? Like SPEAKER_34: tuna. I mean, like, like sardines. It shows you the power. It shows you also evolution. There is where evolution is very strong. SPEAKER_19: Okay, so quick context. Galapagos Islands, cluster of islands way off the coast of Ecuador in the Pacific. 19 bigger islands, a bunch of smaller ones. And this is the place, of course, where Darwin landed in 1835. And as he went island to island, he started noticing that there were all these creatures that were really similar to each other, but also a little bit different. The tortoises had different shells depending on the kind of island they lived on. The finches looked similar, but their beaks were always a little bit different. And this gets him thinking, what if it isn't the way that everybody always says? What if God didn't create every single species in the beginning and leave them unchanged? What if, in fact, life is purely changed? What if everything has been changing all the time? Darwin's five weeks on Galapagos pushed him to develop his theory of evolution. And that's also why when we think of evolution, we think of the Galapagos. And in particular, we think of two iconic creatures, the tortoise and the finch. Let me start by telling you about the tortoise. It's hot. It's bright. It is such a perfect day for tortoise hunting. Or SPEAKER_20: hunting, but you know, looking for. Fourth day I was there, I went to the island of Floriana, SPEAKER_19: which Darwin visited. And there up in the highlands, basically in the middle of this yard. Oh my God. There are these three massive tortoises just clustered together under a SPEAKER_20: tree. Wow, that is freaking amazing. Describe them. What do they look like? These are such SPEAKER_20: alien looking creatures. They're like the size of, geez, I don't even know what. They're SPEAKER_19: massive. They look like they would crush you to death. I wonder how many years these guys SPEAKER_20: have been here for. They can live for over 150 years. Wow. This is a tortoise trying SPEAKER_20: to get over a branch. Who is that? That is the sound of a tortoise breathing. That's SPEAKER_19: cool. So, Linda, when she first went to Galapagos to study these tortoises about 30 years ago. I did a trip where we backpacked around the caldera. She took a trip to this island called SPEAKER_26: Isabella, hiked up the side of a volcano. And looked at all the tortoise country. And SPEAKER_19: it was an impenetrable forest. Basically tortoise heaven. And what makes it so perfect for tortoises SPEAKER_26: is in the dry season in Galapagos, the garua, which is a very, very thick mist, comes onto the island. It rolls over this forest. And it catches in the branches of the trees. The SPEAKER_26: water then drips down from the top of the trees down to the ground. Creating what we SPEAKER_19: call drip pools, which provides tortoises with water during the dry season and water SPEAKER_26: And so there under the trees you have these ponds with dozens of tortoise domes just rising SPEAKER_19: out of the water. So that was my first experience. It was a magical, magical area. And then I SPEAKER_26: actually didn't get back there for maybe 15 years from when I was there the first time. And when I returned, that forest was 100% dry. And it was a very, very thick forest. 100% gone. The drip pools were just dry dust bowls. There was no shade. Tortoises were SPEAKER_11: sitting out in the sun or crowded around the couple of stalks that were still there. This is Carl Campbell. I work for Island Conservation. And I'm based here in the Galapagos Islands. Carl's actually the guy who showed me those tortoises. It was just a barren landscape. Yeah, barren, barren grounds. What happened to the forest? Um, goats. Goats. That was SPEAKER_21: definitely not what I thought you were going to say. I thought you were going to say people. It was kind of a collaboration. So here's the story. Goats were originally sort of brought SPEAKER_11: to the Galapagos, probably by pirates and whalers. Back in the 1500s you had tons of SPEAKER_19: sailors making these long voyages across the Pacific. And the Galapagos was the major port SPEAKER_11: on the whaling route where you'd come and get fresh water, but you'd also come in and pick up tortoises, land tortoises. And boats would take away several hundred of them often and turn them upside down and they can last for up to a year and a half in the hold of a ship. Like lying there upside down? Yeah, lying there upside down. In order to make SPEAKER_19: space for the tortoises, the whalers and pirates would often take goats that they'd brought with them and throw them onto the islands. That way when they're on their way back and sick of eating tortoises, they could grab those goats. So whalers and buccaneers, they introduced goats to Galapagos. But on islands like Isabella, which is this massive island, the size of Rhode Island, the goats were actually penned in to just a little part of it because there was this black lava rock that ran across the island. Extremely rough lava that's SPEAKER_26: extremely difficult to walk across. Twelve miles of it. So that had acted as a barrier. SPEAKER_19: Basically with goats on one side, tortoises on the other. But according to Linda, sometime SPEAKER_26: in the late 1970s, the goats got brave. We were probably talking just a few goats, but SPEAKER_26: by the 1990s, those few goats, the population had exploded to about a hundred thousand goats. And if you think of a hundred thousand goats eating everything in their path, every sort SPEAKER_19: of plant, even the bark off of trees, they destroy the forest. So now they had a dilemma. SPEAKER_19: On the one hand, the tortoises needed help. On the other hand, you had all of these goats that didn't choose to be on the island. It wasn't their fault. And the goats that were SPEAKER_26: out there were gorgeous. You know, they had curled horns, different colored, fur, just beautiful animals. And they've been there for 500 years. Some people were concerned, SPEAKER_11: you know, with goats have their own sort of, if you will, right to be there. Those arguments came up frequently. To which Carl would respond. Yeah. Are we going to let tortoises go extinct? Yeah. There's thousands of islands around the world that have goats on them. These tortoises SPEAKER_19: are only found here. So where do your values lie? And so in 1994, we had what we called SPEAKER_26: the tortoise summit in England. And that was where we started the discussions about what are we going to do. Experts came from all over the world. Linda says, we want to get SPEAKER_19: rid of the goats. And many of them thought we were nuts and that it was impossible. There's SPEAKER_26: a hundred thousand of them. So many doubters. Carl says he even heard the idea. Why don't SPEAKER_19: you put lions? You know, they eat goats in Africa. You know, why don't you get lions SPEAKER_11: on there? And those are really interesting ideas, but at some point they're going to get hungry and they're going to start eating all the other things that you treasure, like the occasional tourist. In any case, after endless planning and meetings, took eight SPEAKER_26: years, I think. SPEAKER_02: What you do is, so you come across and you're flying along and you might see one goat. Says you'd follow that goat as it ran away, till it joined its friends. So you have to SPEAKER_02: find all those other goats. Circle real low. You'd fly around them. Round them up. Try and get them in a single group. And then? SPEAKER_19: You start picking off the goats one by one by one. And there are actually videos online where you see these packs of goats running for their lives and then dropping to the ground. SPEAKER_26: The last goat or two might sort of run into an area where it's impossible to reach. They'll actually go into caves and what we'd do is we'd find a location as close as we SPEAKER_02: could or right on top of the cave, drop out one of the two shooters that was in the helicopter and he'd physically go into the cave, shoo the goats out, or shoot them on sight. And then you go on. SPEAKER_26: And actually, in under a year through this aerial attack, they end up wiping out 90% SPEAKER_19: of the goats on Isabella. SPEAKER_13: But, to give an example of the nature of this business. That's Josh Dunlin. He runs an NGO that was involved in Project Isabella. SPEAKER_19: It's relatively easy to remove 90% of a goat population from an island. But as they become SPEAKER_13: rarer and rarer, they're harder and harder to detect. The goats become, quote, educated. They learn that this sound means. SPEAKER_19: So the goats start hiding. So they go into bushes, they won't move. They'll learn to stand under a tree, holding their breath. And so you end up flying around in an expensive helicopter, not finding any goats. SPEAKER_13: Now the way we deal with that is an interesting one. We use this technique called Judas Goats. SPEAKER_11: Yeah, Judas Goats. SPEAKER_19: Initially it was Carl's suggestion. SPEAKER_11: Because goats are gregarious and like being in groups. They're herd animals, right? SPEAKER_13: And so the technique that we would use was you would fire up your helicopter, you'd fly around, you'd find some goats. Capture goats. Capture them live. SPEAKER_11: And then come back. Back to base camp. Offload them. SPEAKER_13: And you put a radio collar on them. And you throw them back on the island. SPEAKER_19: And then you wait. Instinctively. SPEAKER_11: That lone goat will go and find other goats. A week, two weeks go by. SPEAKER_13: You fire up the helicopter. They get back over the island with this little device. SPEAKER_19: It's a directional antenna. Start tracking the Judas Goat. Till they spot it with some other goats. And then everyone gets shot except the Judas Goat. SPEAKER_19: They let it go, finds more friends. And then everyone gets shot except the Judas Goat. SPEAKER_13: And then they do it again. SPEAKER_13: Everyone gets shot except the Judas Goat. And you do that every two weeks for a year. Oh my God. SPEAKER_19: And that is how they go from 90% goat free to 91 to 92 to 93 to 94. It's like having a pogrom on you over and over and over again. SPEAKER_16: I know. It's like, Jesus. SPEAKER_19: It gets worse. Now a Judas Goat is a good Judas Goat until it gets pregnant. SPEAKER_19: Because then it doesn't want to be social anymore. It goes off and has its kid and is very solitary. SPEAKER_13: Which is the last thing you want when you're trying to get goats off islands. So Carl kept mulling this problem. SPEAKER_11: What would it take to basically make the perfect Judas Goat? The ideal Judas Goat, if you will, is a goat that would search for and be searched for. And that would never get pregnant. SPEAKER_13: So Carl Campbell figured out a technique where we could sterilize them in the field. SPEAKER_19: They'd grab the goats, dart them, and then in a matter of minutes. Snip, snip. Did you do this? Yeah. Well, I stood next to Carl and watched him do it. SPEAKER_13: And Carl took it one step further and he actually gave these females hormone implants. Basically put them into heat. For an extended duration. SPEAKER_19: Normally a female goat would be in heat for maybe a couple days. These females would go For more than 180 days. And wherever they went, they would lure those male goats out of their caves so that, you know. SPEAKER_19: All in all, over the course of this two year program We had hundreds of Judas Goats out. SPEAKER_13: And using those goats they were able to go from 94% goat free to 96 to 97 to 98. SPEAKER_19: And basically when you have only Judas Goats meeting up with other Judas Goats SPEAKER_11: Then you can say the goats have been eliminated. SPEAKER_26: Then you're done. SPEAKER_19: A point they got to, at least on Isabella, in mid-2006. SPEAKER_26: This kind of eradication program was far beyond anything that anyone had ever done anywhere in the world. SPEAKER_19: Because, turns out, they weren't just doing this on Isabella Island. No, we're talking about island by island. SPEAKER_26: Over the course of about seven years they eliminate over 250,000 goats. SPEAKER_19: So, you complete that with Isabella. And did it work? Yeah, the results of this were absolutely impressive. SPEAKER_11: You had plants re-emerging. You had trees growing back. SPEAKER_19: And in a really short period of time. And this allowed for those important drip pools. And tortoises, they basically got their home back. SPEAKER_20: This is a real thing. Tortoises walking around. It's incredible. So they did it. They got all the goats. SPEAKER_21: Not all the goats. What do you mean? SPEAKER_19: Those Judas Goats, they kept them around. Why? SPEAKER_21: I would have shot them first just out of sympathy for them. Yeah, exactly. Well, they needed the goats because, well, there was the problem of people. SPEAKER_19: Because during the 90s, these demonstrations started to happen. SPEAKER_34: Demonstrations of outrage and violent activity. Constant conflict. To explain. SPEAKER_05: This is the episode that is from the past. This is Augustine Lopez, the long time fisherman. SPEAKER_19: And he told me that in the 70s and 80s. The whole year, for real. SPEAKER_19: Lobster was fished all year round. There was no restrictions. SPEAKER_19: And then fishermen started making a killing fishing sea cucumber. Because there was this huge demand. But then the national park comes in. Same group that's doing the goat eradication. And they tell the fishermen they're overfishing the sea cucumber. They've got to limit their catch. And the fishermen are like, who are you to tell me that I can't feed my family? So they lash out. They march down Charles Darwin Avenue. SPEAKER_15: They would come down the street throwing rocks and sticks and everything. That's Paul Watson, founder of the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society. SPEAKER_19: He was there counter protesting. And he says that at one point they went after national park buildings. SPEAKER_15: And they were attacking the ranger stations with Molotov cocktails. They blockaded roads. They literally drove the rangers out of the national park headquarters and took it over. On Isabella they burned down a building. They kidnapped some people, including some of my crew. SPEAKER_19: And they even killed dozens of tortoises. Slitting their throats. According to some accounts, they even hung them from trees. SPEAKER_26: Not only that, but according to Linda, those goats? SPEAKER_19: A couple islands where they've been eliminated, fishermen have put them back. SPEAKER_19: Really? Oh yeah. And so what they decided to do is leave the Judas goats on various islands. SPEAKER_19: Where they can live out their sterilized days, chomping on grass, sharing war stories. Until such time as they might be needed again. Is the war between the greens and the fishermen and such, is that still hot and difficult? SPEAKER_16: And are they still killing tortoises? They're not. The fishermen, they seem to have stopped taking over national park and killing tortoises. SPEAKER_19: Do you know why? It's a combination of reasons. On the one hand, fishermen have started to participate in the actual fisheries management more. Because it seems like they realize if they're going to keep their livelihood, they can't just fish everything out. But then at the same time, the tourism economy has been taking off. And so all of these fishermen, they find that it's easier for them to actually survive by using their boats to take tourists around island to island. So they're all kind of converting over into the tourism economy. We're going to take a short break. SPEAKER_21: This is Radiolab. We'll be back with producer Tim Howard in this hour on Galapagos in just a moment. 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After but her emails became shorthand in 2016 for the media's deep focus on Hillary Clinton's server hygiene at the expense of policy issues, is history repeating itself? SPEAKER_03: You can almost see an equation, again I would say led by the times in Biden being old with Donald Trump being under dozens of felony indictments. SPEAKER_03: Listen to On the Media from WNYC. Find On the Media wherever you get your podcasts. SPEAKER_21: I'm Jed Abumrad. I'm Robert Krilovich. This is Radiolab in this hour. Well the honeymoon's over. Galapagos. SPEAKER_16: This is the place where Darwin began to develop his theory of evolution. SPEAKER_21: And it's the place 170 years, maybe 180 years later where our producer Tim Howard landed wearing fishnets and a bad brains t-shirt to find a very different landscape than what Darwin saw. Now we just told you a story about how far humans are willing to go to protect something. SPEAKER_16: This next part, it's about how far we're willing to go to get something back that we've already lost. SPEAKER_21: To sort of restore a place and a creature to its quote wild state. This story unfolds on one of Galapagos' most northern islands where they also had to get rid of some goats. It's called Pinta. Yeah, Pinta was a very special place. SPEAKER_17: This is James Gibbs. Professor of Conservation Biology at the State University of New York. It's one of those islands, it's not part of any tourist visitation site. So there are no people there. And when you set foot first on Pinta you immediately sense sheer abundance. All the insect life. All the birds. SPEAKER_19: The problem is, on Pinta things were spinning out of control. The vegetation was growing wild. The forest was getting overgrown with the wrong kind of plants. And the whole ecosystem was just teetering out of balance. And one of the reasons for this, according to Linda Cayote, is that we had an island with no tortoises. SPEAKER_19: Because tortoises are sort of like the lawnmowers. You know, they plow down vegetation, disperse seeds. SPEAKER_26: But for centuries they'd been hunted by those whalers and in about 1906 the Pinta tortoise went extinct. SPEAKER_19: 1906? Yeah, a little over 100 years ago. They don't know the exact date. But then, one evening in March of 1972. SPEAKER_19: This fellow. He's a well-known tortoise researcher. He was on Santa Cruz Island having dinner with some friends. And one of the people he's eating with says, Hey, I was recently on Pinta Island collecting snails. And I saw this. SPEAKER_19: He and some National Park Rangers race out to Pinta. And there it was. SPEAKER_19: One male tortoise. Maybe 50 years old, they weren't sure. They'd eventually name him... But at the time the immediate question was... Because if they could find a female for George, then they could maybe de-extinct the species. SPEAKER_27: They found a shell of a female. Hey. A dead animal. Oh. SPEAKER_19: How had this female tortoise died? SPEAKER_27: Someone chopped it in half. No. You can see the marks where it was just chopped up. SPEAKER_27: I felt violent. I wanted to borrow someone's gun and go and kill the person. SPEAKER_17: Everyone held out hopes for just finding more tortoises back. James says they kept going back, combing the island. With highly trained tortoise sniffing dogs. But in the end, there was just George. That then shifted the focus on, now what do we do? SPEAKER_26: We then went to a wolf volcano. Island next door. And collected two females. SPEAKER_19: Two females that sort of looked like George but weren't quite the same species. And we put them with George to see if we could get him to breed. SPEAKER_26: He never did. Wasn't interested. So they thought. Hmm. SPEAKER_19: Maybe he needs a Pinta lady. Now of course there are no female tortoises on Pinta. But they thought, you know, maybe a zoo somewhere or a private collection has one. Because you really never know. So they called around, offered huge cash rewards. People sent in dozens of tortoises. But Linda took one look at them and was like. No. No. No. No. SPEAKER_19: They weren't Pintas. So then they thought, we've got to take matters into our own hands. Basically what you do is you sit at the back of the tortoise. SPEAKER_26: And first you have to get to where they'll allow you to touch them. Hmm. And eventually you start, you know, fondling their legs and tails. SPEAKER_26: Right. And hoping to get them to ejaculate. And had a volunteer working with me. Her name was Sveva Grigione. She worked with him every other day or so for a few months and was never successful. We were really starting to get kind of desperate about options. SPEAKER_17: And James says, in a way it was a paradox. SPEAKER_19: Because on the one hand, awesome. We have an actual living Pinta Island tortoise. But on the other hand, he might have actually been like the worst possible candidate for last of his kind. He seemed to really like to keep to himself. SPEAKER_26: He never really liked other tortoises much. He didn't seem to like humans. And maybe that's why he survived. SPEAKER_19: He wasn't curious. James says a lot of tortoises. They hear your footsteps. SPEAKER_17: They raise their heads. They come out to see what's going on. And then they get whacked. SPEAKER_33: Yeah. SPEAKER_19: In any case, for about 40 years scientists tried everything humanly possible to get Lonesome George to mate with another tortoise so they could resurrect a species and bring Pinta Island back to its original state. Nothing worked. Until... One day in July of 2008, George turns to the two female tortoises that he had been ignoring for years. And he says... Hello beautiful and beautiful. SPEAKER_19: Inexplicably, he just suddenly decides to mate with both of them. They each lay eggs. Two clutches were ultimately laid in his corral. SPEAKER_17: And the scientists are like... George got our hopes up dramatically. But they ultimately were infertile. SPEAKER_17: Motherf***er. SPEAKER_13: In the mid-80s they were having a meeting about this. That's conservationist Josh Dunlin again. SPEAKER_19: A whole bunch of herpetologists were out there and some island conservationists and they're talking about what to do with Pinta. SPEAKER_13: And they can't get Lonesome George to reproduce, which they were hoping to do, because then they could build a Pinta population and put it on Pinta. And he says that as the meeting wore on, it got tense. SPEAKER_19: Oh, for sure. In fact, one guy I spoke with... Harry Green, I'm a professor of ecology and evolutionary biology at Cornell University. SPEAKER_32: ...said that at this meeting, there was one guy who just couldn't take it. SPEAKER_19: All I remember is him just fuming. SPEAKER_32: He sat there getting more and more and more frustrated. And finally he just blurted out, Shoot that f***ing tortoise and quit wasting our time. SPEAKER_13: Because in his view, this single individual was holding up this huge conservation opportunity. And of course the shock was, there was a wave went around the room when he said that. SPEAKER_32: I recall seeing sort of a second wave as the Spanish translation passed around the room. And really what that guy was specifically saying was, don't be precious. SPEAKER_19: A tortoise is a tortoise is a tortoise. SPEAKER_13: Let's just take some tortoises... From a nearby island... SPEAKER_19: ...and put them back on Pinta. But there's a much bigger question here... ...that goes way beyond Galapagos. SPEAKER_19: Which is basically like, what is the right way to protect nature now? People are right now throwing beers at each other around what is the right strategy. SPEAKER_19: Josh says that there are basically two camps right now. On the one side you've got this classic, like what you might call, Eden approach. Conservation biology, its foundation is this idea of pristine wilderness. SPEAKER_13: From the very beginning I think all of us, well I can't speak for other people, SPEAKER_26: but you always have this idea of wanting to get it back to some kind of pre-human condition. SPEAKER_19: Pre-human being the operative word. And if you think about it, we all have this. We all have this picture of what we want to bring it all back to. You know, it might be like... The plains just covered with buffalo. Or maybe the Serengeti desert with lions and elephants. Or maybe it's ten thousand hammerhead sharks. But whatever the scene is, it just doesn't have any people. But is carrying that idea, those pictures in your head, even like useful anymore? SPEAKER_21: It's like so cynical. No, but it just seems so unrealistic. Right, but I mean in the bigger picture you can make the argument that humans now affect every square meter of the earth. SPEAKER_29: There's no place, no matter how remote we get, you can go to the North Pole. It's been affected by human activity. You can go, I don't know, the depths of the impenetrable jungle. It's been affected by human activity. That's Holly Doremus. She's an environmental law professor at the Berkeley School of Law in California. SPEAKER_19: We're radically remaking the world. SPEAKER_29: And the question is, what's our responsibility? And this brings us to our second school of thought, which in its most extreme version goes something like this. SPEAKER_19: We're God, we might as well get good at it. SPEAKER_13: And we're going to have to create these ecosystems based on our best science. And you could argue we're going to have to get a whole lot better at making some very, very difficult decisions. SPEAKER_19: Climate change seems to mean that a lot of species are pretty much doomed. SPEAKER_29: 30%, 40%, 50% of the species now on the planet in a few decades may be disappearing. And this is what I think is really the tough question now, is if we concede that we can't any longer save all the species, SPEAKER_29: then does that put us in the situation of having to decide which ones we'll save and which ones we won't, and do we have any basis for making those kinds of decisions? SPEAKER_16: So you're saying that the, let's go back to when it was good, let's go back to a better time. That's just silly. SPEAKER_29: I didn't say it was silly. I said it was impossible. Things might not be silly, they might not be stupid ideas, but we still might not be able to do them. SPEAKER_20: Okay, so here's a wood plaque that says, Lonesome George is the last survivor of the dynasty of land tortoises from Pinta Island. SPEAKER_19: And in fact, in 2012, after decades of trying to get him to breed, Lonesome George dies. R.I.P. 24th of June, 2012. And the Pinta tortoise went extinct. SPEAKER_21: So damn, case in point, I guess. No going back. SPEAKER_19: Yeah, I mean, that's what I thought. But then I spoke with this woman. Hello. Hello, Gisela, do you hear me? Yes, I do. Who kind of scrambled everything up for me. Can I get you to introduce yourself? SPEAKER_24: Yes, my name is Gisela Caccone. I am a senior research scientist at Yale University. SPEAKER_19: And Gisela's come up with kind of a radical idea. I call it the Phoenix Project. SPEAKER_24: Here's a backstory. In the mid-90s, SPEAKER_19: We started in 94. SPEAKER_24: Gisela and some folks from the Galapagos National Park, SPEAKER_19: they began taking a census of all the tortoises in the Galapagos. Every population of tortoises on all the islands. SPEAKER_24: They were going to do this big population study, so they went island by island, SPEAKER_19: took a little bit of blood from all these different tortoises, did a genetic analysis, And au pla. Found something they never expected. A group of tortoises, not on Pinta, that had a lot of Pinta DNA. I remember very clearly the moment was very, very exciting. SPEAKER_24: It's like, yes, look at this. Yeah. Wait, you're saying this Pinta DNA was on another island? SPEAKER_21: Yeah, not on Pinta. No. How would that happen? We don't think it was natural. SPEAKER_24: Gisela thinks it might have been the whalers. SPEAKER_19: Either the whalers or the pirates. You know, because like we talked about in the 17, 1800s, these whalers would come along, grab a bunch of tortoises, put them on the ship, and then they would hunt for whales. There she blows! SPEAKER_19: And sometimes, When they were done and the ship was filled with whale products, SPEAKER_24: There's no room down here. SPEAKER_19: They throw a few extra tortoises overboard. Say, a few from Pinta. Maybe those Pinta tortoises swam with occurrence to that nearby island, set up a little expat community, SPEAKER_19: and started breeding with the locals. SPEAKER_24: That's our working hypothesis. SPEAKER_19: Which brings us to her idea. SPEAKER_24: You know, on average, 50% of your genome comes from your mom, and 50% from your dad, but it's an average. So Gisela thought, just by chance, SPEAKER_19: some of these tortoises are going to have a little bit more Pinta DNA from their Pinta ancestors than others. Yes. So what if we took those tortoises and bred them together? SPEAKER_24: Select them for the next generation, so you can give a push to this process. She says if we keep doing that, taking the babies with the most Pinta DNA, SPEAKER_19: breeding them together, slowly, surely… In four generations, you could have 90% of the Pinta genome restored. SPEAKER_24: Really? Yeah, but that's four generations of tortoises, not rats, which means at least 100 years. But, in the meantime, the vegetation on Pinta is growing out of control. SPEAKER_19: From an ecological point of view, Pinta can't wait. SPEAKER_24: So in 2009, they come up with a stopgap. SPEAKER_19: They take 39 tortoises raised in captivity and they use them as placeholders. They sterilize them and put them on Pinta. Really? SPEAKER_16: What? Wow, these are very purist sort of visions they've got. So they sterilize 39 of them. SPEAKER_19: So they're just basically the lawn mowers. Exactly, and they put them on Pinta, and they're just chomping away right now. They're living out their lives really happily on Pinta, you know, until the originals are ready. SPEAKER_19: Now, Linda says, in the end, you don't actually need to do the full, aggressive four-generation breeding thing. You can just take the best Pinta-ish tortoises you find and put those on Pinta. And, you know, over the next 200,000 years, they will evolve into a Pinta tortoise. SPEAKER_26: And it could be a bit different than the past Pinta tortoise because evolution and mutation and all that doesn't occur the same. But eventually, nature's going to take over, and they will evolve into Pinta tortoises. SPEAKER_19: Is this the way that everybody who works on the tortoises thinks about it? This kind of deep time? SPEAKER_26: I don't know. I'm not sure many other people think about that. SPEAKER_18: Just walked past a newspaper that says, 72 hours left in the electoral campaign. And the flags are still flying everywhere. SPEAKER_16: We'll be back in less than 200,000 years. Yeah, but we will be different when we come back. Yeah, we will. Stay tuned. SPEAKER_04: I'm Chad Abumrad. SPEAKER_21: I'm Robert Krilovich. This is Radio Lab. SPEAKER_16: Today, a whole hour on the Galapagos Islands, the place that inspired Charles Darwin to create his theory of evolution, whose basic ingredients are lots of time, isolation, and then constant change. But Darwin didn't consider this possibility. What if, on these islands, thousands of tourists arrive every day carrying fruits and chocolates and souvenirs, jumping from island to island? Now, the Galapagos government spends millions of dollars checking all of the goods that come in and out, SPEAKER_21: trying to quarantine the ones that might have things that are a problem. But what if simply putting your foot on the ground can completely transform a place? SPEAKER_19: Back to producer Tim Howard. So I met this woman named Heinke Jaeger, who is like a plant scientist. SPEAKER_22: I'm the restoration ecologist at the Charles Darwin Foundation. Here we are in Los Hemelos. SPEAKER_19: We were going to look at these incredible craters called Los Hemelos. Oh, I almost got hit by a car. And as we're walking along the path, she's like, oh, wait, look at this. Right here. SPEAKER_19: She points just to the right of the path. SPEAKER_22: Look at this species here. SPEAKER_19: Small leafy green thing. They call it yanten in Spanish. SPEAKER_22: It is in its plantago. I think in the U.S. they call it the, was it the wrench of the white man? SPEAKER_20: The wrench of the white man. SPEAKER_19: It's actually the footprint of the white man. Doesn't matter. Point is... An introduced species. It's introduced. It's found in Europe, North Africa. Shouldn't be here. SPEAKER_22: And you have this one here. SPEAKER_19: She points right next to it. It's called Taruscantia. SPEAKER_19: Sharpie thing, green and white leaves. SPEAKER_22: It has a terrible common name in English. I'm not going to say it. SPEAKER_19: Wandering Jew. Basic house plant. You can buy it at Home Depot. But there it is in the Galapagos. And along this path. Just looking to the right and the left. SPEAKER_22: And then she just starts counting the number of invasive species. SPEAKER_19: One, two, three, four, five. As you can see here, it's only right next to the trail. SPEAKER_22: But not so much further. You see that they're only there for this border of about five to ten inches along the edge of that path. SPEAKER_19: Why? Why would that be? Because, Hanke said what happens is that tourists, they'll be back in their home country. They'll be walking around in a garden or a park. And it'll be filled with tiny seeds. The seeds stick to shoes and socks and trousers. SPEAKER_22: They wear those trousers on a plane and then they wear them when they come here. SPEAKER_19: And then people walk and then just distribute or disperse the seeds along the trail. SPEAKER_22: Wow. SPEAKER_19: Now most of these plants are actually probably harmless. And you know, like you said, Galapagos National Park, they spend tons of money, tons of time trying to keep invasives out. But the fact is there's only so much you can do. And every once in a while, one of these hitchhikers slips under the radar and just wreaks havoc. SPEAKER_20: You just grabbed it just like that. You just put your hands around it. SPEAKER_14: Yeah. But that's only possible the first day. SPEAKER_19: So while we were in the highlands of Santa Cruz, Hanke took me through the woods to meet this guy named Arno. My name is Arno Cimidom. He's an ornithologist. From the University of Vienna. And shortly after we walked up, he reached out into this tree and he grabbed this tiny little baby finch right off the branch. He's adorable. He's just... Oh my God. He looks a little bit furry almost. SPEAKER_20: Really tiny. Vulnerable. SPEAKER_14: This is a fletching of a warbler finch. So the warbler finch is the smallest of the Darwin's finches. You can like see him pulsing kind of as he's breathing. SPEAKER_19: So Darwin's finches. In short, Darwin, when he visited Galapagos, he collected a lot of specimens of finches, took them back to England, and eventually he realized that the beaks had all adapted. They were all a little bit different depending on which island the finches lived on. Were the beaks adapted to whatever the finches were eating? SPEAKER_21: Well, they were eating. SPEAKER_16: One island's finches had literally like, the beak would be shaped sort of long, and then the next island, it would look almost the same but much shorter, and this became one of the most important pieces of evidence that, you know, when animals would move from one place to another, that they would begin to differentiate based on what they were really eating. Oh wow, so these are very, very important beaks. SPEAKER_19: Very important, yes. But speaking of beaks, that finch that Arno was holding... He's just afraid. His beak? SPEAKER_14: Did you see the... Especially this side is extremely huge. Oh yeah. Oh, the nostrils have big holes. SPEAKER_20: Yeah. SPEAKER_19: Ah, poor little guy. Something had gotten inside this little finch's nostrils, drilled these holes, and it was now eating the flesh on the inside of the birds' nostrils. Scientists first began to see this in 1997, when they started to find nests full of dead baby finches. At first, nobody had any idea what kind of creature it was, so they began to frantically study it. SPEAKER_10: I actually visited one of the main researchers, Piedad Lincango. SPEAKER_19: She's lived in Galapagos for over a decade, and she showed me her lab. SPEAKER_10: I'm surrounded by shells, and on the shelves are these tiny little plastic cups SPEAKER_19: that are filled with flies. SPEAKER_20: This is the villain. A little black fly. SPEAKER_19: Looks like every other fly. SPEAKER_20: In fact, Piedad says... SPEAKER_19: that it's actually in the same family as the regular house fly. SPEAKER_10: But it's actually a bot fly called Phalornis Downsy. SPEAKER_19: Do you just spell Phalornis Downsy? SPEAKER_10: Yeah, it's P-H-I-L... SPEAKER_19: I can't spell out L-O-N-G-E. Phalornis Downsy. Phalornis Downsy. Phalornis Downsy. Phalornis Downsy. Phalornis Downsy. Phalornis Downsy. Phalornis Downsy. Phalornis Downsy. I can't spell out loud. SPEAKER_18: F-I-L... F-I-L-O-R... SPEAKER_19: L-O-R-N-I-S... D-O-W-N-S-I. Okay. Phalornis actually means bird-loving. SPEAKER_19: That's Charlotte Causton. She's a researcher. SPEAKER_25: At the Charles Darwin Foundation. SPEAKER_19: She says there's actually very little known about the fly. They're not sure where it came from or quite how it got here. But here's what they do know. The adult fly seems to be harmless. SPEAKER_25: The adult fly is actually vegetarian. on flowers and we think decomposing fruits. SPEAKER_19: Baby flies, they're not vegetarian. They will, you know, suck blood. SPEAKER_25: And what happens is that as soon as birds start laying eggs, SPEAKER_19: Mother flies swoop in SPEAKER_25: and lay their eggs on the base of the nest. SPEAKER_19: Sort of underneath the finch eggs. SPEAKER_25: Once the eggs hatch, the eggs hatch of the flies as well in the larvae. SPEAKER_19: Wriggling little larva will crawl out from the bottom of the nest of the finch's body into its beak. SPEAKER_25: And they go into the noses of the baby finches. And just start eating. You know, they basically feed on the blood of the baby birds. How did these little fly babies know? SPEAKER_16: I mean, that's a very specific trip to take. SPEAKER_25: Good question. We're still trying to figure that out. You know, we assumed that it was carbon dioxide. Carbon dioxide. From the breathing of the birds. Wow. Yeah. SPEAKER_05: She's opening a box with some of the birds, SPEAKER_20: the little pinsonas, the finches. Oh God. SPEAKER_19: Pieda showed me this tiny little dead finch in this box. SPEAKER_19: Wow, there's a little hole into the brain of this little finch. Oh my God. SPEAKER_20: Waco en la esparla? They ate the whole back of this little finch. SPEAKER_19: Wait, so how big a problem is this? Well, I talked to one scientist. Sonia Kleindorfer, I'm professor in animal behavior SPEAKER_08: at Flinders University, South Australia. SPEAKER_19: And she told me that researchers recently did a survey of finch nests. Four different species on two islands SPEAKER_08: and all research groups found about 95% mortality in the nest. SPEAKER_21: 95% of the babies were dead? Yeah. And Arno told me. SPEAKER_14: That this year, small tree finches so far, we had only two nests with fledglings and all the others were dead. So it's a lot, yeah. SPEAKER_19: But even worse. So far we found vailornis on 13 islands. SPEAKER_19: The flies spreading island to island. SPEAKER_16: Is there any time scale we should worry about? Like are these finches disappearing very fast, very slowly? Depends on the species. SPEAKER_25: We have at least five species that are known to be facing extinction and another six in serious decline. SPEAKER_19: These five species, does that mean that they may go extinct in the next five years, in the next 50 years? SPEAKER_25: I hope not. You know, we have the case of the mangrove finch. We have 60 to 80 individuals left. Wow. It's a race against time. SPEAKER_19: So for starters, they put up all these traps. They took me outside, they showed me where the traps are. A trap hanging from a tree here. SPEAKER_19: And you see them actually all over Santa Cruz, these bright yellow traps hanging from trees. SPEAKER_21: And this is to control the fly population? No, no, they would need like millions of traps SPEAKER_19: every few feet to do that. This is just to grab a few flies, take them back to the lab and study them so they can learn how to fight them. Charlotte and Piedad's fantasy is that the flies SPEAKER_25: use a pheromone to attract the opposite sex. It would be lovely if we could find something like that. SPEAKER_19: Because if they could find that chemical, that love chemical that the flies use to attract each other, they could disrupt it. Confuse the flies. And screw up their mating. Another possibility is... SPEAKER_25: Sterile insect technique. SPEAKER_19: Sterilize male flies and introduce them back into the wild. So that the female mates with a sterile fly SPEAKER_25: and obviously doesn't produce fertile eggs. SPEAKER_19: If they can't make babies, the population will crash. SPEAKER_25: And in some cases you can successfully eradicate a species. But here's the problem. SPEAKER_19: If they're gonna release sterilized male flies into the wild, they have to be able to raise SPEAKER_10: millions of these flies in the lab. SPEAKER_19: And they're trying like crazy. She's showing me all of the larvers that hatched today. Piedad showed me four baby flies that had just hatched. And they're in these little cups. SPEAKER_19: But she told me that these four flies will probably die. Because they always die. SPEAKER_25: Right now we have huge problems trying to reify lawnis in captivity, which is ironic. Given, you know, how abundant it is in the wild. SPEAKER_19: When I was there, Piedad told me that so far they had only successfully raised three. Three adult flies. SPEAKER_21: And you're saying they needed millions. SPEAKER_19: Yeah. And meanwhile, the finch populations are just getting decimated. Charlotte says that they're trying to respond. Ornithologists have started to notice some new behaviors. For instance, adult birds picking the larvae SPEAKER_25: out of the nostrils of the baby birds. SPEAKER_08: And what we're starting to see is that they're beginning to consume them. You mean eat the fly larva? SPEAKER_19: Yeah, which 15 years ago they would never do. Back in the year 2000. SPEAKER_19: Sonia and some colleagues tried feeding the finches some fly larva. And if ever there were a look of disgust on a finch face, SPEAKER_08: that was it. So I think there's been a change. SPEAKER_19: They're also seeing baby finches climbing up over each other, just struggling to get away from the larva on the bottom of the nest. SPEAKER_08: And they'll even start standing on the nest rim just to avoid being eaten. SPEAKER_19: But when I asked Charlotte what she makes of all of these changes, she said. SPEAKER_25: I think probably too little, too late. SPEAKER_19: But then Sonia told me something really surprising. SPEAKER_08: Yeah, that was a very unexpected discovery. SPEAKER_19: Takes a couple steps to get there. But just to set it up, back in 2000, she was on Floriana Island for the first time. SPEAKER_08: I started studying Darwin's finches. In particular. Three tree finch species, the small, the medium, and the large. And we went out and we set up our mist nets and we caught the birds and we measured them. SPEAKER_19: And the thing to note is that even though these are our three different species, they're actually really hard to tell apart visually. So she would end up relying on their songs, their mating calls. Yep. Do you remember the song types? Could you whistle them for me? SPEAKER_08: Oh yes, it's a very simple song. The small tree finch goes something like ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch. Ch ch ch ch ch ch ch. That's a small tree finch. And the medium tree finch is just a bit slower. For the medium it's a ch ch ch ch. Ch ch ch ch ch. For the large ch ch ch ch ch. SPEAKER_19: Wow, it's like a soprano saxophone and an alto and a tenor or something like that. SPEAKER_08: That's right. So we just sat in the forest and we would always quiz each other, what's that, what's that? And we all agreed. SPEAKER_19: Because the calls are really distinct. Easy to tell apart. But the interesting thing was from year to year SPEAKER_08: it got more difficult. SPEAKER_19: Sony says each time she'd go into the field, the song sounded like they were starting to blur together. Ch ch ch ch ch. SPEAKER_08: Then when I showed up after a few years again, I was truly even more perplexed. SPEAKER_19: She thought, God, why can't I tell these finches apart? SPEAKER_08: It was very confusing. Am I losing my touch? But that shouldn't really happen. You should actually get better with experience, not worse. And that's where I thought, oh, something's changed in the system. SPEAKER_08: I like to think of it as a kind of Darwin Finch, you know, sleuthing adventure. SPEAKER_19: So Sony and your team rounded up some of the birds they tagged. SPEAKER_08: We collected genetic samples. Got some DNA. SPEAKER_19: And song samples. Made some recordings. Brought all this stuff into the lab. SPEAKER_08: Analyzed the genetic samples. And had this terrible realization. SPEAKER_08: That the large tree finch is now extinct. SPEAKER_19: Totally gone from the island. So you really only had two species left. You had the small tree finches and the medium tree finches. And based on that genetic data, the small tree finches not doing great, but compared to the medium tree finches, they are because the medium tree finches were on the brink of extinction. SPEAKER_21: Like the large ones. SPEAKER_19: Yeah. But then she sees something amazing in that genetic data. She sees a small group of birds who have mixed up genes. SPEAKER_08: A hybrid cluster. SPEAKER_19: Some genes from the small tree finches and some from the medium tree finches. What does that mean? Well, it means that these two different finches had started having babies together, which should never actually happen because these are totally separate species. SPEAKER_08: That's really the classical definition of a species. SPEAKER_19: It's like a biological rule about who you're not gonna make a baby with. SPEAKER_08: So they choose not to breed even if they could. SPEAKER_19: For who knows, maybe a million years, the medium tree finch has patrolled that boundary. I've got my thing over here and you got your thing over there. But then along come the flies. And all of a sudden, like over maybe 20 years, these medium tree finches, they start to break their own biggest rule and they start to mate outside of their own kind. SPEAKER_21: And these hybrid finches, are they doing better against the flies? SPEAKER_19: Well, there's a couple of clues that say maybe. Yeah, for example, when you look in the nests. SPEAKER_08: They seem to have fewer parasites. SPEAKER_19: And they seem to have more babies that survive. 15%, whereas the numbers were very small SPEAKER_08: for the medium tree finch and smaller for the small tree finch. SPEAKER_19: Wow, I dare say that sounds kind of hopeful. SPEAKER_08: It does, yeah. SPEAKER_19: Now, the jury is still very much out on what will happen. SPEAKER_08: If the hybrids do have a fitness advantage. SPEAKER_19: And if they survive, we may be witnessing in hyper speed, the creation of an entirely new species. SPEAKER_08: It would possibly be one of the first vertebrate examples of speciation in real time that we can observe. SPEAKER_19: So, tucked into the story of these finches, is the story of Galapagos. Same exact story that Darwin saw, these processes that he described. They just never, ever stop. It's this unending struggle. SPEAKER_09: There you go. One last thing. SPEAKER_19: My last night there, I went to meet up with that guy Leonidas who was running for mayor. I met him at this pizza place. The election had happened the night before. Did he win? No. Bucelli, the incumbent won. So we go outside to chat. Leonidas Parrales. SPEAKER_06: Leonidas Parrales, I was running as a mayor. SPEAKER_19: Turns out he speaks some English. So we do this interview in English. And I'm almost embarrassed that I wanted to talk to him because I think the dude is just going to be so down and out. Exactly the opposite. He was so joyful. To have lost? That's what I thought. You're not sad? You're not sad? Oh no, never Fred. And he's like, friend, this is a field of four. The other three all have money behind them and you see their flags all over Santa Cruz. I just came in second. The guy who wins, he spent $500,000. I spent what, two grand? Friend, it's the beginning. SPEAKER_07: It's the beginning of a new future for the Galapagos Islands. SPEAKER_19: We are ascending. And we keep, we have our dreams up. SPEAKER_07: So nature has a voice now. The sea lion has a voice in us. The tortoises has a voice in us. The penguin in everyone. SPEAKER_16: So something is happening. SPEAKER_07: That's exactly how he sees it. So thank you very much for the interview. I hope you enjoy the Galapagos Islands. SPEAKER_09: Producer, Tim Howard. And before we close, very special thanks to Matthew Judas Kilty, without whom Tim would SPEAKER_16: have been crushed just by the sheer amount of tape that he gathered. SPEAKER_21: Indeed. Also thanks to Dylan Key for original music. Thanks to Trish Dolman and Screen Siren Pictures, Alex Galifant, Matthias Espinoza, the naturalist guide from the first chapter, who wrote this song, Pico Pinzon. He's also a well-known musician in Galapagos, it turns out. Thanks to the Galapagos National Park, Charles Darwin Foundation, Island Conservation, and the Galapagos Conservancy. I'm Chad Ibomrod. I'm Robert Krolowicz. Thanks for listening. SPEAKER_33: Radio Lab was created by Chad Ibomrod and is edited by Soren Wheeler. Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser are our co-hosts. Suzy Lechtenberg is our executive producer. Dylan Keith is our director of sound design. Our staff includes Simon Adler, Jeremy Blum, Becca Bresler, Rachel Cusick, W. Harry Fortuna, David Gable, Maria Paz Gutierrez, Sindhu Nyanisambundam, Matt Kilty, Annie McEwen, Alex Neeson, Sara Khare, Ana Rascout Paz, Sarah Sandback, Ariane Wack, Pat Walters, and Molly Webster, with help from Bowen Wong. Our fact checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Krieger, and Adam Sybil. SPEAKER_30: Hi, I'm Erica Inyankers. Leadership support for Radio Lab science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radio Lab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation. SPEAKER_28: WNYC Studios is supported by On Being with Krista Tippett. I'm Krista Tippett of On Being, where we take up the big questions of meaning for this SPEAKER_00: world now. In our new podcast season, we're going to have a different human conversation about AI and also the intelligence of our bodies, grief and joy, social creativity and poetry, and so much more. A conversation to live by every Thursday.